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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
... not revisited, because I hadn't read his v.4 history until a few days ago. The gist of it is certainly well-known – Seeder of Worlds, Dominion War in the 20th century, inspiration for the Legion, Glorith, the Buffer Zone, etc. – but this is the first time I’ve sat down and actually read LSH Annual # 2, in spite of having purchased it, along with several other v.4 issues, more than three years ago. Why the delay? I’m not sure: real life intervening, lack of interest in most of v.4, adverse reaction to the name “Valor,” take your pick.

But after re-reading and reviewing Levitz’s twilight Legion stories to see how they held up after twenty years, I’ve been slowly catching up with v.4, as well. So, I’ll present my thoughts on “The Legend of Valor” n the usual manner: Plot Summary, General Impressions, and Verdict. Again, no attempt is made to hide SPOILERS. I do invite everyone to share their thoughts as the thread progresses.

Legion of Super-Heroes (v.4) Annual # 2, published in 1991, was written by Tom & Mary Bierbaum, with pencils by Brandon Peterson, inks by Scott Hanna, and colors by Tom McCraw (whose work contributes mightily to the mood of the story).
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I. Plot Summary

In the 30th century, dissent breaks out among the leaders of the Dark Circle, who are angry over their recent failure to conquer Carggg. One member, the N’croni “castover,” accuses the rest of letting the “demonic light” of objective knowledge corrupt their devotion to darkness and the “blood emotions.” For this heresy, he is sentenced to hear the “mythic of Valor,” a legend of some importance to the Dark Circle. Accompanied by another Dark Circle leader, the Dolminae castover, the N’Croni journeys into the Forest of Death, where he encounters three reciters who tell the tale:

After summarizing Valor’s birth on Daxam and association with Vril Dox, and briefly describing his encounter with a time traveler (Ultra Boy?), the reciters get into the meat of the story: Valor flies to an alien world where he attempts free human prisoners upon whom the Dominators are experimenting, but finds his efforts stymied by a horrifying fact: many of the prisoners are encased in a mutagene tank and he cannot remove them without killing them. Realizing he needs help, Valor seeks allies in a resistance group called the Sub-Domina and, later, in a renegade group of Dominion thinkers known for the diamond-shaped emblems in their disks. Together, they liberate the humans and defeat the ruling castes on the Dominon’s homeworld, Elia. Valor and his allies prevent the Dominators from destroying their homeworld and, for their crimes against their own kind, Valor sentences them to be stripped of their hierarchical disks and to live the rest of their lives as untouchables. He then banishes the non-renegade scientists of the Dominion from their world. (These scientists, we learn, colonize the world of Dolminus, which later joins the Dark Circle.)

Later, Valor persuades many of the altered humans, who now have a variety of super-powers, to colonize worlds between earth and the Dominion – worlds such as Winath, Tharr, Carggg, and Bismoll – to protect earth, should the Dominion try to invade again. Later still, he meets Glorith and is initially taken with her until she reveals her plans of conquest. When Valor rejects her, she traps him in the Buffer Zone, where he remains for a thousand years until rescued by the Legion. Once freed, he is worshiped as a god by the descendants of the people he saved, whose colonized worlds have grown into prosperous civilizations. But Valor rebuffs their worship, telling them to save it for real gods.

As daybreak arrives, the two Dark Circle leaders end their audience with the reciters. The N’croni grudgingly admits that “the knowledge is of considerable use” and that “someday, somehow, [Valor’s] influence over the galaxy must be eradicated.”
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
II. General Impressions

A. Use of Characters

1. Although this is Valor’s story, it doesn’t feel like it. He never changes as a result of this story; in fact, he remains utterly (and annoyingly) consistent throughout. Valor is the virtuous hero, the Christ-like figure who makes all the right decisions, who has the best interests of humans at heart, and who never experiences a range of emotions, other than occasional bursts of anger. He is also the hero who is betrayed by a woman and sentenced to unjust imprisonment. In the end, he is also the hero who humbly rejects being elevated by the people who owe him so much. There are elements of Joseph Campbell’s Hero of a Thousand Faces in this, which is the same source George Lucas tapped for Star Wars. Unlike Luke Skywalker, however, Valor does not come off as a human being. Instead, the writers seem to deify him just as the 30th century inhabitants do. As a result, he seems remote: unknown and unknowable – which is fine for a god, but not for the protagonist of a super-hero story.

2. Valor’s one indication of change comes when he realizes he needs help in freeing the altered humans. One can imagine that this is a major concession for him as he is shown waging a one-man war against the Dominion. Too, he might be unwilling to trust others after his association with Vril Dox. But the reader is left to guess all this, as the writers never address it.

3. Instead, the one character who does change is the N’croni castover, who comes to realize there is value in learning things (which is what I’ve been trying to tell my students!). But he’s not an important character, or at least not one I care about. Further, the ending – where the N’croni concludes that “something must be done” about Valor -- is weak. Something must be done about gas prices, the War in Iraq, and illiteracy, too. Everybody knows that, already.

4. Several supporting characters are introduced, but little is done with them. They serve a plot purpose, nothing more, and so do not come off as interesting or well-developed characters. The only one I care about is 362, the number-named female Dominator, whose death comes unexpectedly and tragically.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
B. Evaluation of Plot

1. The plot concerning Valor’s battle with the Dominion and seeding of worlds is fine – very good, even. It creates a feeling of war, of much being at stake, and of the lengths people will go to – both to be free and to stay in power. I also like it that, for all his power, Valor has a limitation – he needs help. And, although a lot of action going on, it keeps the story moving.

2. Where the plot fails, in my opinion, is at the beginning and at the end. Too little information is given about Valor’s back story for the reader to understand why he wages a one-man war against the Dominion and why he cares so much about earth. Sure, we are told that his father died in the war, but we aren’t told anything else about their relationship. It would have been helpful to see his father and how Lar related to him, so we can get a picture of how devastating it must have been to lose him.

The Glorith and Legion scenes are tacked on. They are there because they’re expected to be there, and this demonstrates one of the problems writers often face in telling stories: the need to focus on one specific event. (I’m reminded of the old Superman: The Secret Years mini-series of the mid-‘80s. The writer, Bob Rozakis, had said in an interview or text piece that he originally wanted to cover all four years of Clark Kent’s college experience. The editor persuaded him to select just one year. Why? Because otherwise the story would be too large and encompass too many unrelated events.) If Glorith and the Legion had to be there, they should have been integrated into the main plot. If not, it would have been better to shorten the lead story and include a back-up story to deal with them. (Actually, the latter option sounds more appealing: It could have afforded the writers an extra opportunity to include character development by showing Valor struggle with his decision: Does he rule with the woman he loves or does he stay true to his principles?)

3. The shadowy cameo of Ultra Boy (?) as the time traveler is distracting. I presume that this refers to some previously published story, but, as presented, it’s just a loose end.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
C. Themes

1. The main theme is knowledge versus ignorance. The Dark Circle keeps its followers in line by having them worship the “blood emotions” rather than embracing the “demonic light” of knowledge. The N’croni castover may be a villain, but at least he has the integrity to believe what his followers believe; the Dolminae castover sees benefit in knowledge, but reserves it for the leaders.

The story effectively portrays the lure of darkness and the suspicions that ignorant people often have of knowledge. The members of the Dark Circle fear that knowledge will corrupt them. They are on a mission to rid the universe of the influence of “the light.” Comparisons between the views of the Dark Circle and the fundamentalist thinking of modern terrorists are inescapable and chilling. It is virtually impossible to reason with someone who has already decided that any knowledge you have to contribute is evil.

Another attitude regarding knowledge and ignorance is found in the upper castes of the Dark Circle. We are told that they regard scientific knowledge as the burden of lower castes. Yet they don’t mind exploiting that knowledge for their own gain, even if it means destroying their own planet and most of its population. Are there analogs of these attitudes today, in corporate CEOs, perhaps?

A subtle contrast with these views can be found in Valor, who recognizes that he needs help in freeing the human captives and soon finds allies who possess the knowledge he lacks. Again, I wish this had been expanded so that this recognition comes as a major revelation to Valor. Instead, he yells “Damn!” and bursts out of the metagene camp before chastising himself for his lack of foresight. The recognition is there, but it’s too abrupt and contains no sense of consequence for Valor. (In other words, N’croni fears he will be corrupted by the light if he learns anything. What does Valor have to fear or lose in his own revelation? His independence perhaps? His unwillingness to trust again? So many opportunities to explore his inner self ... lost!)

2. There is a minor theme of equality of the sexes versus patriarchy. The Dominators do not embrace equality, yet one of their females (362) not only leads the rebellion but sacrifices herself to break the renegade Dominion scientists out of prison. This theme is carried on by Shamarra, the human (and future Tharr colonist) who emerges as a leader to the surprise of one of the renegade Dominion scientists. This theme, though well intentioned, is trite. If the Dominators, as a culture, do not embrace knowledge, then why would it surprise anyone that they (even their rebel scientists) are not liberal minded in other areas? Had this story been published 20 years earlier, this theme might have seemed revolutionary and thought-provoking; but, in 1991, it told readers what most of us already know and accept about equality.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
III. The Verdict

“The Legend of Valor” is a very complicated story that tries to preserve as much of Lar Gand’s Legion history as possible (even to the point of him fighting a Luthor (?) robot), while completely rewriting his back story so that he will serve as a credible inspiration for the Legion and later as a member of the same group. In many ways, Lar seems to resist being “shoehorned” into the role of Superboy/man. Perhaps this is why the writers go to such great lengths to establish his presence as not only a warrior but also general, judge and jury during the war with the Dominators. They also try really hard to establish the war as a conflict of some import, and with significant consequences even a thousand years later. But in trying to convince us of all the wonderful things Lar Gand did in our own time, they’ve forgotten what I consider to be the most essential ingredient in a hero: to make him a human being.

The story has about equal parts flaws and good story telling. But, overall, it can’t hold a candle to the simplicity and charm of Mon-El’s first origin, in Superboy # 89, June 1961. The “big brother” relationship between Lar and Kal in that story became a defining aspect of Lar’s character, an aspect that continued until Superboy’s death and beyond. “The Legend of Valor” offers no similar relationship to compensate for its absence; nor does it even give Valor a family such as Clark Kent had, so we can understand and relate to him better. Instead, it borrows too heavily from mythology and religion in order to cast Lar in the role of Savior of humanity. But Lar Gand is an unwilling savior, and one who is forced to wear the narrative hand-me-downs of Superboy, Jesus Christ, and other mythical figures in lieu of developing his own personal story.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
your thought largely echo my own, although you articulated them in more detail than I ever bothered to.

well done.

Yes, that was Ultra Boy as the time traveler, as told in TMK Annual #1. I also read #2 before #1; #1 tells of the meeting from Jo's persepctive; he and Marla are on Jo's initiation quest as a continuity replacement for SB 98, "The Boy With Ultra Powers." Since there's no Superboy secret ID to figure out, his mission is to find out what happened to Valor.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Annual #1 is highly recommended, BTW. It fits together a number of post-Mordruverse continuity elements into a tight story; it's one I much prefer to #2.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I agree that #1 is much better and highly reccomended. Like Kent, I largely agree with you on this HWW. I read this for the first time about two years ago and although it wasn't a bad read, I wasn't completely enthralled by it. In fact, I might even consider this a reason why I general dislike Mon as Valor, and all that comes with that. I much prefer his original Silver Age origin tale.

While I did like the focus on 20th Century Dominion society, I also did not like the way the Dark Circle was portrayed here, which is completely different than any previous appearance to TMK.
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
I enjoyed the Valor Annual. It was one of the last "true annuals" that took some extra space to tell a story that complimented and supplemented what was going on in the main book. Today's annuals are too thin, and too often part of some crossover event.

The Dark Circle was fleshed out and given some needed depth. I found them much more interesting and threatening after reading this story. That added to my enjoyment of reading about them in the main book. The art work added as much as the words in this respect.

In the same way, the Dominators were enhanced for me by this story. 362 was a great character.
Her nobility is especially interesting given the debate surrounding the Dominator "genocide" in the conclusion of the Wak run. She popped into head as soon as people started to debate the concept of a whole race being portrayed as evil and a threat.

I miss your point when you say that a story dealing with the concept of equality would have been revolutionary 20 years earlier, but not so much when this issue was printed. I don't think anyone was trying to be revolutionary. They were trying to tell a good story, and I think they succeeded. I was rooting for the good guys with all my heart, and the topics addressed were more substantive than those addressed in 90% of the comics I've read in my life. I'll give them a pass for not being revolutionary.

I also found the Valor as seeder of worlds concept fascinating. It worked for me so much better than the idea that all of these planets just eveloved differently, and the powers that we see represtented in the Legion just came about accidently in an isolated way on each these worlds. It kind of all flowed pretty well the whole meta gene concept, and events in the Invasion crossover. These ideas seem more realistic and sophisticated to me than everyone gaining their powers by accident.

The issue also worked for me visually. To often, on annuals or special events the artwork gets choppy because of the extra size. I get that feeling of choppiness when I read the previously mentioned Annual #1. This one had a consistent feel that was enhanced by the coloring. I really enjoy picking up this issue and just thumbing through it. It feels good.

If I were to give a letter grade to the Valor Annual it would be an A minus, and I encourage anyone who hasn't read it to try to find a copy.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
The one weakness that I agree with is why is Valor waging a war with the Dominators. His father was killed? Ok, more emotion? But I am guessing Daxamites are not the emotional types like the Kryptonians. I would have liked more backstory there as well.

The Valor as perfect savior that makes all the right decisions? Maybe that is why I never liked Superboy. He was too perfect. Valor is taking Superboy's place here after all. But I like the writers showed him asking for help.

I don't think this story is complicated for a modern audience. Sure the original Mon-El origin is simpler and quite silly. I'm not a fan of that stuff. This story ties in to Legion mythos.

Valor as the inspiration works for me. "Valor" works for me as well. (M'onel? UGH!)

I would guess big Superboy fans will not care for this story while big Mon-El fans like myself think he finally got his due? Well maybe not. Jerry seems to be a big Superboy fan and he liked it.

[ June 13, 2007, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Ultra Jorge ]
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
your thought largely echo my own, although you articulated them in more detail than I ever bothered to.

well done.

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quote:

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Yes, that was Ultra Boy as the time traveler, as told in TMK Annual #1. I also read #2 before #1; #1 tells of the meeting from Jo's persepctive; he and Marla are on Jo's initiation quest as a continuity replacement for SB 98, "The Boy With Ultra Powers." Since there's no Superboy secret ID to figure out, his mission is to find out what happened to Valor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
The Dark Circle was fleshed out and given some needed depth. I found them much more interesting and threatening after reading this story. That added to my enjoyment of reading about them in the main book. The art work added as much as the words in this respect.

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quote:

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I miss your point when you say that a story dealing with the concept of equality would have been revolutionary 20 years earlier, but not so much when this issue was printed. I don't think anyone was trying to be revolutionary. They were trying to tell a good story, and I think they succeeded. I was rooting for the good guys with all my heart, and the topics addressed were more substantive than those addressed in 90% of the comics I've read in my life. I'll give them a pass for not being revolutionary.

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quote:

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I also found the Valor as seeder of worlds concept fascinating. It worked for me so much better than the idea that all of these planets just eveloved differently, and the powers that we see represtented in the Legion just came about accidently in an isolated way on each these worlds. It kind of all flowed pretty well the whole meta gene concept, and events in the Invasion crossover. These ideas seem more realistic and sophisticated to me than everyone gaining their powers by accident.

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quote:

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The issue also worked for me visually.
[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:
I don't think this story is complicated for a modern audience. Sure the original Mon-El origin is simpler and quite silly. I'm not a fan of that stuff. This story ties in to Legion mythos.

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quote:

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Valor as the inspiration works for me. "Valor" works for me as well. (M'onel? UGH!)

I would guess big Superboy fans will not care for this story while big Mon-El fans like myself think he finally got his due? Well maybe not. Jerry seems to be a big Superboy fan and he liked it.

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I'm a big Mon-El fan. He's always been my favorite Legionnaire. My user name (He Who Wanders) is even taken from the reboot meaning of M'Onel (which I'll take any day of the week over Valor).

I suppose this is why I'm so disappointed in the story, because I don't feel it gives Lar his due. It tries instead to shoehorn him into a role he's required to fill by editorial dictates. This role doesn't feel natural for him.
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
This is definitely my least favorite of Tom and Mary's LSH tales, though I understand why it had to be told.

They were a given a Legion where Superboy was whited out and something important to me about Mon-El/Valor was and will always be the relationship with Superboy.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
He Who Wanders, never got the Mon-El connection. I love your name now! My "Himself Alone" is also a Mon-El tribute.

Also it's actually ironic that his name is Mon-El. Mon(o) can mean "one".

"Throughout antiquity, this place was known as Port Hercules. Phoecian and Carthagenian sailors contributed to its prosperity.

The name "Monaco", "Monoikos" in Greek, is nearly always associated with that of Hercules by the ancient writers.
In Greek, Heracles Monoikos may mean "Heracles alone" or "Heracles who has only one temple". This is popular etymology."

Doing a parallel between the romantic Hercules and the Mon-El? It works quite nicely. Hercules wandering the edge of the world (at the time) in Spain/Portugal. The gates of Hercules and all of that.

Mon-El needs that kind of respect.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Unfortunately, one of the greatest Mon-El moments, in TMK #3, which has one of the best Legion covers ever (when thought about in terms of continuity of the last year or so at the time), is probably the last time we saw what I consider the real 'Mon'.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Cobalt, I agree. Maybe that Mon-El is wandering the end of time?
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Well, if that issue proves anything, Mon might be able to make things (re: Legion history) right then
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Jorge, those are interesting associations for the name, "Mon-El." Certainly, Mon can be in the company of Hercules, who was a god with a human personality!

Here's another association with the name: "monel" is an alloy of steel!
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Maybe Mon-El (& Shady) should lead a team of Legionnaires called the Wanderers exploring the edge of space where no sentient has gone before!

(i'm serious! imagine Legion Lost with classic Mon-E & Shady. They can investigate the deaths of the original Wanderers, etc.)
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
I've long thought "grown-up" space explorer Mon-el should be the leader of a new set of Wanderers!
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
While I did like the focus on 20th Century Dominion society, I also did not like the way the Dark Circle was portrayed here, which is completely different than any previous appearance to TMK.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
And both completely rock out over Brainy's Mom's puppets Dark Circle of the post-ZH Legion.

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I thought you were part of the thousands of Legion fans who swore a blood oath never to mention that again. I know I still have my scar.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
EDE, i never knew Mon-El was an explorer. Having him leader of the Wanderers just opens up a new avenue for the Legion.

The ancient cult Dark Circle does rock. But you can still work the cloning in.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Jorge, being an explorer was part of the reason Lar Gand went to Krypton in the first place.

If you're interested, I once wrote a fanfic to explain, in part, why he never returned to Daxam.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
HWW, I never knew he went to Krypton until yesterday.

I knew he met Superboy and then because of lead poisoning went into the Phantom Zone. That's it. I've been reading since 83 (around) and don't remember hearing about him going to krypton.

Was it mentioned in the Who's Who in the Legion mini? Until recently (the internet) that was my source for Legion info.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Yeah, only in WWitLSH, he actually visits Pocket Universe Krypton!

So, he goes off to explore space, somehow ends up crossing over to the Pocket Universe, lands on one of the only two inhabited planets in the PU, finds out this planet (Krypton) is about to blow up, gets a map to the other inhabited planet, winds up in suspended animation on his way there, finally lands but with amnesia, meets the son of the guy who gave him the map and is mistaken for the kid's older brother, regains his memory after being massively poisoned, is put in the "Phantom Zone" for 1000 years, and is finally released and cured of his poisoning in his home dimension.

Hmm.... maybe that "Valor" stuff isn't so convoluted after all...
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
So how long was he in suspended animation? Same time as Superman it seems. So Mon-El is from the distant past?
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
I don't think there was any suspended animation in the Silver Age Superman origin.

So, Mon-El was born in, like, the early 1910s, visited Krypton in the late 1930s, was in suspended animation for about 15 years, landed on Earth in the 1950s, was in the Phantom Zone for 1000 years, and freed in the 30th century.
 

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Posted by armsfalloffboy on :
 
I understand some issues with the storytelling style; I will say, however, that this is one of my favorite Legion stories. I thought it was a beautiful example of a retcon that made sense and really answered a fundamental 30th Century question: Why do people from different planets, although all of them are basically humanlike, have different powers? The Silver Age explanations for how these powers developed was not really holding up very well, and it also established why Valor was such an important figure. I don't really consider it to be a "Mon-El replaces Superboy" story.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
armsfalloffboy, i agree. I think that was the main reason for it. Why do all these worlds have human characters that are very earthlike. I hope that story still stands somehow.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
The problem is it doesn't really explain that, though. You've still got tons of planets that are basically inhabited by humans (Thanagar, Rann, Krypton, Daxam, many others), with or without powers, that have nothing to do with Valor. If you've got a universe where you've got tons of planets that are inhabited by humans, I don't see anything weird at all about some of those planets having people that develop powers without some unifying explanation for how specifically those powered races got there.

Basically, you're trying to explain why there are super-powered humanoid aliens out there by saying "a super-powered humanoid alien did it", but that's no explanation at all.

[ June 15, 2007, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I understand that point but those planets that the survivors inhabited are all Legion related planets. Daxam, Thanagar, Krypton, Rann we all know existed.

I don't remember anything about Winath, Tharok, Braal, Naltor mentioned in the 20th century.

What planets exactly did they explained were colonized by the human survivors anyways? It wasn't that many was it? Starhaven probably needed an explanation.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
(though i'm sure it was mentioned in a PC Superman comic. He was meeting aliens from every other planet it seems. And they looked just like the boy next door)
*blah messed up my post*
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Yeah, but before the late 80s (not long before the "Valor" retcon was introduced) we hadn't seen anything about the Dominion, Khundia, Durla, et al. in the 20th century, either. Legion planets just weren't used in the twentieth century pre-Crisis.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I kind of wish Legion planets are not used by the current DCU myself. We see Khunds, Durlans, Coluans, Dominators popping up everywhere. And there isn't much of a difference between them in the current DCU and 1000 years in the future.

I guess Invasion! introduced the Dominators and Khunds to the "present" time. Damn Giffen!
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Yeah, I think one of the biggest problems with comics (at least DC) is that all of the "sci-fi" settings seem to be basically the same. So, if you travel to the 22nd century or the 30th, there's not a whole lot of difference, and they both look pretty much like most alien planets you visit.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Exactly. The only example I can think of is the Durlans are shown to be hi-tech and in the future they are not?

Also the Khunds are slightly more barbaric than in the future version. but in the future they still are barbaric.

I guess many of the present races/planets like Tamaranians, Psions, half the members of the Omega Men and L.E.G.I.O.N. are not represented in the Legion future.

What happened to them?

"Only the children of Gand survive. Only the children of Gand."

And people think he's not a savior.
 

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Posted by rouge on :
 
Square Peg, Round Hole. This is exactly why I didn't like the retcon. Having Man-el/Valor take over the Superboy stuff in continuity wasn't a good fit because their characters were so extremely different.

Mon-el was slightly morose and haunted by his time in the past. He took so much joy in his friends and relationships because they were the only thing that eased his pain, yet he was still prone to wanderlust and isolation.

Superboy was, well, Superboy. Youthful, energetic and a heroic inspiration, mostly because of the first two traits. Trying to take the "inspiring" part and graft it onto Mon-el just didn't work. I'll stop now because I sound like a broken record.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
It kind of makes sense that a lot of the planets that might be important in the 31st century would be different than the planets that are important in the 21st century.

I mean... if you think about it on analogy with countries... how many countries that are powerful today were really all that important/powerful 1000 years ago?

You could add something into the background of the Legion about how a bunch of planets all develop space travel about the same time in, say, the 29th century, which leads these "young planets" to form the United Planets.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
We need a Who's Who for DC Aliens. Marvel is doing all those handbooks DC needs to do the same.

rogue, good point btw. The present DC cosmic scene is very dark while the future isn't.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I agree that there is no reason to see the same aliens in the 20th/21st centuries that we see in the 30th/31st. One important reason not to include the same aliens in both settings is that faster and more efficient space travel will enable humans to encounter worlds undreamed of a thousand years earlier. Many of the races in the Legion's future would not be known to exist in the present day.

As for Tamarians, Psions, etc., existing in the future: there are many possibilities. They could be extinct. They could have bred and merged with other races. They could have simply changed their names and the surface features of their cultures. Just as countries undergo changes in real life, so would extraterrestrial societies.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
As for Tamarians, Psions, etc., existing in the future: there are many possibilities. They could be extinct. They could have bred and merged with other races. They could have simply changed their names and the surface features of their cultures. Just as countries undergo changes in real life, so would extraterrestrial societies.

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I'd like to see those reasons in a new story. Maybe by T&MB with a recap of how Mon-El is responsible for the dysporia of the human race.

Ok, that might be going to far. I think DC should avoid using the Legionverse aliens and use more of the ones that already appear in the "present" DCU.

The Khunds appeared in a recent Ion issue. eh.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
The worst thing is that when the Khunds were first introduced, they were supposed to be this completely unknown race from distant space with a vast empire who were suddenly invading the U.P.

Now they're like boring generic aliens who pop up everywhere in the 21st century.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:

quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
As for Tamarians, Psions, etc., existing in the future: there are many possibilities. They could be extinct. They could have bred and merged with other races. They could have simply changed their names and the surface features of their cultures. Just as countries undergo changes in real life, so would extraterrestrial societies.

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I'd like to see those reasons in a new story. Maybe by T&MB with a recap of how Mon-El is responsible for the dysporia of the human race.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
The worst thing is that when the Khunds were first introduced, they were supposed to be this completely unknown race from distant space with a vast empire who were suddenly invading the U.P.

Now they're like boring generic aliens who pop up everywhere in the 21st century.

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quote:

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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
[QUOTE]DC is missing a great opportunity to tell stories of what happened in the millenium between our time and the Legion's. Understandably, they don't want to tie too many things down, otherwise it might hamper future writers as the Adult Legion was accused of doing. But there's plenty of time (and space) to explore these other settings.

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I completely disagree. The more one fills in the gap, the more the Legion gets the carpet pulled from under it. Look at the rag-tag GL Corps/Darkstar history, and its LSH ties as an example of this (let alone post-Crisis Superman "continuity").
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I'm not familiar with the Green Lantern Corps/Darkstar history, Kent. But just because one story or storyline created complications doesn't mean that the rest of the third millennium should be off limits. After all, many of those stories may have nothing to do with the Legion.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
it wasn't just one storyline, HWW - pretty much any storyline with strong cross-millenial links has backfired. I just used GL as an example.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Can you provide some examples of how they have backfired, Kent? I had largely stopped reading DC's mainstream books before the Darkstars were introduced in 1992, and I don't recall any other stories (except for the odd Space Museum story or Booster Gold's origin) that were set in that millenium.

In fact, the stories I do recall are Legion-related ("Soljer's Private War," S/LSH # 210, which referenced the 28th century, and the backstory of Computo/Robotica in the reboot). Maybe I just have a one-track mind where the future is concerned.
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
One aspect of the Valor legend/story that I really liked was this "ordinary hero becomes a god". Although it wasn't often featured, Valor was sometimes shown dealing with the consequences of being worshipped. Jeckie called on him to use this influence when there was Dark Circle trouble on Orando and he refused. However, he did use his exalted position on Cargg to expose the Dark Circle there.

Another person might have let all this go to his head and exploited people, or live a celebrity life, or just become impossible to live with, but Lar withdrew from it. If you've become a god, but don't want to sit on a throne and dispense wisdom, what else do you do?

In this sense, I think it was a hindrance to the character as a Legionnaire. How do you function on a team mission when people are worshipping you wherever you go? So I really like the idea of Lar leading a Wanderers team, or working the edges of the galaxy - it would enable the character to keep the complexities of his godlike-status, operating in areas where perhaps no one had even heard of the legend of Valor.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Good points, Cramer. I think it was smart of the reboot team to keep Valor's identity secret from the general population. It prevented people from reacting as Triad did when they saw him.

One of my favorite scenes, although it doesn't portray Lar in the best of light, is from Legionnaires # 31, when he comes out of the Stasis Zone and is worshiped by Triad. He tries to turn her away gently, but then is informed by Cosmic Boy that he should lay low for awhile, until Valor fever subsides. He then lets Triad have it, blaming her and people like her for the fact that he's gone from one prison into another.

There is so much in this scene:

1. Triad learns that Valor isn't the perfect god she thought he was.

2. Valor learns that his past actions, though heroic, have had unintended consequences for him. No good deed goes unpunished, and all that.

3. We see that Valor has a temper. While again not his best moment in comics, it gives him a human quality which, I think, is handled much more believably than his outbursts in Annual # 2.
 

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Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
 
i never saw mon-el as a loner type after all we knew he had great affection for Superboy, and was close to Jo. Yes he did brood a lot after the great darkness saga at least that's where I saw the broddness begin. And defintely when his serum started running down. columinating in issue 23 of the baxter story. but never really much else (unless you;re taking what happend to daxam and him being upset over what the UP was treating the surviving daxamites. I thought those were in character and normal.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Maybe Mon-El should go emo? (i just learned what that word meant...i am old).

I didn't start reading Mon-El till after the GDS. I do remember him being happy though. With Shady, horse playing with Jo, or that double date camping trip.

Still I like a brooding/serious Mon-El. It seperates him a bit from Superboy.

Plus it seperates him from the others. I'd like to see these characters have more cultural differences rather than it be a all american high school.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
The brooding or loner aspect didn't become defined until much later, but, as with many characters, you can find clues or subtle hints in some stories that might support this development:

In ADVENTURE COMICS # 341 (the second half of the Computo story), Mon is present throughout, but has little, if anything, to say.

In ADVENTURE COMICS # 333 ("The War Between Krypton and Earth"), he is absent from the story until the very end, when he arrives in time to stop a bomb.

In ACTION COMICS # 384, Mon learns that he is dying and chooses to spend his last hours in action instead of with friends.

In SUPERBOY # 191, Mon runs for leader, yet worries that he will crack under the strain of leadership (in spite of having already served a term as leader).

In SUPERBOY # 203, Mon, now leader, goes ballistic when a Legionnaire (Invisible Kid) is derelict on duty.

While none of these episodes prove conclusively that he brooded, they do suggest that he may have been more comfortable being by himself or keeping his own counsel. He was utterly dependable when needed (ADV. 333), but didn't participate in the main adventure. He served as leader out of a sense of duty, not because he enjoyed being in command.

Mon-El was happy, of course, particularly with Shady. He also regarded the Legion as family (though, as with any other family, that doesn't mean he wanted to be around them all the time).

There is, of course, leeway to interpret these stories differently. But, like Jorge, I think a tendency to brood or go off by himself distinguishes Mon from Superboy.

[ June 21, 2007, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
HWW, and I guess that is why in v4 they explained his temper tantrums, loner attitude as him being part Eltro Gand?

You'd think constant contact around lead despite the serum would make him a bit crazy.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I always equated Mon-El with Captain America. They make Cap down right depressing sometimes cause of his "man out of his time" thing.

Mon-El lived in the Phantom Zone! I just don't imagine him all that happy. I like somber Mon-El.
 

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Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:
HWW, and I guess that is why in v4 they explained his temper tantrums, loner attitude as him being part Eltro Gand?

You'd think constant contact around lead despite the serum would make him a bit crazy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:
I always equated Mon-El with Captain America. They make Cap down right depressing sometimes cause of his "man out of his time" thing.

Mon-El lived in the Phantom Zone! I just don't imagine him all that happy. I like somber Mon-El.

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