Who/What do you want the Time Trapper to be?
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
It's my first *gulp* poll. Be gentle.
Also please elaborate your choices. If a new origin...what?
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
I liked him as an unknown. That's why I voted for Something New
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Although the idea of TT turning out to be Dynamo Boy (not Kid) is appealing, I went with "renegade Controller." The impact of the story in which this was revealed is still with me as it ties in neatly with what we already know about the Controllers. It gives the Trapper near-omnipotent powers and a plausible motive (e.g., power corrupts), something sorely lacking for a living embodiment of entropy.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I was torn between 'something brand new' and 'an obscure Legion related character', but ultimately went with the latter. Part of the reason I love the Trapper is that he’s so complicated and there’s so many possibilities in regards to what he is and who he is. Once revealed, I almost feel like then his story is close to over (except for the inevitable finale/showdown that would follow). I personally liked the ‘entropy’ aspect of him, but I also kind of liked the Rokk reveal. I loved the Glorith character, but feel that she should be able to stand on her own, so that her and TT are not one and the same.
But when it comes down to it, the visual of the character is too appealing for me not to want there be some sort of ‘reveal’. That hood and cloak just beg for it, whether my logic tells me other wise. But a Legionnaire has been done and a Legion villain is repetitive. So I want it to be someone obscure. Like Dynamo Boy, or someone that makes sense that way.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
I echo Cobalt Kid .. cobalt kid ...cobalt ki ...
However, I really don't need to know his identity. The unknown makes him more powerful and more scary, IMO. The revelation that he was a Controller (although taken back), Glorith, and/or Rokk Krinn were all anti-climatic after the fact.
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: But when it comes down to it, the visual of the character is too appealing for me not to want there be some sort of ‘reveal’. That hood and cloak just beg for it, whether my logic tells me other wise.
This is one of those "couldn't disagree more" moments. The only way I could support this idea is if the cloak came off - and it was empty, the Trapper WAS the cloak. "Its old Mr Jefferson, the man who was sweeping the corridor at the start of the episode" reveals are SO anti-climatic. You even admit it in the same post, in a way:
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Part of the reason I love the Trapper is that he’s so complicated and there’s so many possibilities in regards to what he is and who he is. Once revealed, I almost feel like then his story is close to over (except for the inevitable finale/showdown that would follow).
Which is just... y'know, the mask comes off and it's... A WHITE CAUCASIAN MALE!!!
It's a Scooby-Doo reveal - it "has" to be someone you know. This doesn't get better if it's an obscure "someone you know".
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: I personally liked the ‘entropy’ aspect of him, but I also kind of liked the Rokk reveal.
The problem with "the Rokk reveal" - well, leaving aside the essential Scooby-Dooiness of it all and that, as you acknowledge, it reduces the TT severely - is that it's chronologically absurd. You've got a sequential series of reality changes, which are essentially metachronological (the chronology of chronology ) and thus have an order - and the TT is someone not from the top rung of the ladder. If he's "someone" as opposed to a personification, he needs to be someone from the Pre-Crisis era (or "earlier", from the reality which was recreated into the Pre-Crisis era by Krona). Which is why it's probably for the best that the "Rokk reveal", if not completely negated, was hugely watered down in LSH105.
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
I nearly voted "Krona" because not only did that possibility intrigue me since I'd never thought of it before, but also because this potentially leaves the door open for "Rogue Controller" (sort of) and "Personification of Etrophy," too, sometime down the road.
By the way, it also occured to me that if character origins are rebooted yet again, Krona would also make a plausible Infinite Man. Y'know, along the lines of: "Okay, Krona, if you want to view forbidden events in time so badly, then--WHAM!--we Guardians of the Universe damn you to hurtle repeatedly through the cycle of time so that others will be dissuaded from attempting to view the moment of Creation." Just an idea, anyway.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
If you see a gun in the first act of the play, that gun best be fired by the end.
If you strand a guy in a far future post-apocalyptic environment with a broken time machine in Adv. #331, then that guy best be coming back for revenge and more badass than ever.
Of course, if you've already got a badass villain who uses a somewhat similar m.o. who, I don't know, comes from a far future post-apocalyptic environment and whose origins are really mysterious, then there best be some connection between the two of them.
That's all I'm sayin'.
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[ June 11, 2007, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Both ephemeral and eternal. I enjoyed the progression the character went through, remaining fairly ill-defined.
I'm a bit torn though between whether TT's purpose with the Legion should have an overall cosmic scheme sort of thing or that Legion was just a mouse TT particularly enjoyed playing with. Certainly LSH needs at least one of both type characters. Legion never really had a Mxyzptlk did they, someone who's goal was just to aggravate?
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Legion never really had a Mxyzptlk did they, someone who's goal was just to aggravate?
Quislet?
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I'd prefer a complete and utter mystery; just when you think he/it's nailed down, you're wrong. I did vote for Krono, though, 'cause it was a neat idea.
Posted by candlelight on :
There are a couple of great ideas here but I'd like the Trapper to be Dream Girl+ this time around. Brainy did some strange stuff with her this boot and I'd like there to be more of a consequence than that he now has a split personality.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I agree with Cobalt that the hood begs for there to be a reveal. I'm OK with him being entropy but would prefer him being someone.
Dynamo Boy? Sure. Anybody from Legion history that fits without a huge retcon or complication.
EXCEPT a former member. Atleast a "real" member. By this I mean people who were members for more than a day. I hated Rokk as the Trapper.
I think they would have to define what the Trapper is trying to do. Loved in v4 the Mordu/Trapper, iron curtain of time stuff.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Also the discarded ideas would make great villains in their own right.
EDE, I think you stated before how many Controllers have gone rogue. But you know DC really doesn't use the Controllers. Lets take them from the GL books.
Dynamo Boy? To reintroduce a writer has a really good job retelling his story but I think it's possible. As long as they don't get long winded with the exposition.
Krona as Infinity Man? Well not sure I like that but both of them in a story would rock.
Legion has a great history with a wealth of villains that any point can be made into great villains. I guess that's another post. Posted by Rockhopper Lad on :
I voted for a new origin, but I'm not sure what it would be. I'm only sure that when revealed, I'd say "Why didn't I think of that!" Posted by duck458 on :
I prefer the mystery, too. Yes, the hood and the cloak beg for a reveal, thats why any such 'reveal' MUST be another of TT's machinations. There should be one rule in the LOSH mythos: Never reveal the true identity and origin of TT. That's it, that's the one rule.
Wait, two rules:1. Never reveal the true identity and origin of TT and; 2. LOSH must always be a team, no more of this movement nonsense (what are they going to have a sit-in in the UP President's office?)
Oh, oh FINAL RULE: Lightning Lad has to have jacked-up luck but it never gets him down.
AND THAT'S IT! THOSE ARE THE RULES! Carry on.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by candlelight: There are a couple of great ideas here but I'd like the Trapper to be Dream Girl+ this time around. Brainy did some strange stuff with her this boot and I'd like there to be more of a consequence than that he now has a split personality.
Shady! Welcome back!
TT as Dream Girl? A burgundy robe hiding that beautiful face? Well, it would be unexpected.
Posted by doublechinner on :
I agree with Duck's rules. It would be a fun series of stories to do an infinite regression of Time Trapper impersonators, and you could use all of the great ideas here, and more, but never get to the identity of the real villain. It's always more fun when everything is hinted at but not nailed down. Like all the connections between Reed Richards, Doom, Immortus, Kang, etc. Much more fun when you can speculate for yourself.
Posted by stephbarton on :
I voted for something new.
One, I don't know much about TT and weren't sure who all these people were, but I do feel that he should be an unknown, wants you know that he is a rouge Controller, or an former villain or member, or something else (a former New God, guardian, etc) you make him mortal, he is no longer cosmic and just beyond our understanding, once you put him in a category he is just another comic character that can be defeated (because as far as I know all those aforementioned groups have at some point had their butts handed to them).
As for the entropy of time (or whatever), I'm sorry, but things like that just sound wimpy. I think I dislike them because they don't have a will, they are just an 'event' if that makes any sense.
I think the TT should always be clocked, and maybe you can drop suggestions that he is Krona or a former member or Dynamo Boy or something, but he can never be revealed because once revealed the mystery and 'awe' is gone. I don't know much about TT, but I think he's a great villain because it sounds like he is powerful (Time Trapper, messes with time, sounds like a worthy villain) and because you don't know his story (or at least I don't) so the 'mysterious cosmic villain' thing works for him.
Hope that all makes sense, it probably doesn't but I tried.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Yeah i guess the fun is not knowing who he is. So Duck's rules make sense.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Yeah, even though I said I couldn't help but want a reveal, it was under my earlier premise that such a thing would basically mean no more Time Trapper stories. So while I really *don't* want a reveal, I really *do* want to think that one day there will be one.
Make sense? Guys like me and Walt Whitman don't need to make sense Posted by candlelight on :
Thanks HWW! I lurk a lot.
I only thought Nura was a good idea because of her snatched dead body/rebooted body this time. I was very unhappy with what happened to her AND the way she was envisioned by Waid. Shady
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Hmm.... I disagree strongly with the "permanent mystery" idea. Unless there's some definite answer to who he is and what his motivation is, then he remains completely uninteresting as a character as far as I'm concerned. If his motivations and actions are purposely vague and unintelligible, then the plotline of any story that is driven by his actions becomes vague and unintelligible. Mysteries in fiction are fine, but they require having answers that you can figure out, and be right or wrong about.
Especially given the serial nature of comics as a medium, having a principle that the TT's true identity be something that must remain permanently unrevealed is just a prescription for each writer to treat the character in a completely different manner, with no consistency whatsoever.
I also disagree that once his identity is revealed, his story is over. If his backstory is well done, and his agenda and motivations are indeed well thought out, the "reveal" of who he is has the potential to really be just the beginning of his story. The GDS plays on the mystery of the who the villain of the saga is. Is Darkseid's story over once he's revealed as the mysterious villain? Hardly.
I see the reveal of the Time Trapper's identity and motivations as something which can only progress the storyline, while leaving him permanently mysterious and vague gets old pretty quickly.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
EDE makes some strong points.
To fine-tune my position, I would argue that there is room for some ambiguity, to keep some mystery. We could see plenty of hints that it is a future version of a legionnaire or of a major DC immortal type, but never quite no for sure.
One of the things I dislike about super-hero universe-style storytelling is that the fans are usually told too much: we don't need to know that the Controllers were Oans, for instance; I'd have rather seen Oa left as a mystery.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Darn it I'm back and forth. I guess if the Trapper is to be a major villain (which he is). He needs motivation/goals. Why? And all of that goes to who he is.
Posted by doublechinner on :
I agree with EDE that the Time Trapper should have a clear motivation. But I think you can have a clear motivation without making it crystal clear who/what the Trapper really is. In fact, I think it's imperative the Trapper have some clear motivation and ground rules, otherwise, how is it he never wins!?!?! He has all of eternity at his control, and he can't defeat a bunch of teenagers? I mean, c'mon, talk about a loser! (This is my general critique of all time travel villains, btw.)
Posted by Novelty on :
What if the Time Trapper was of the same family/species/whatever that the Spectre is - an entity that can take a host of some sort? Would that idea get shot down?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Well, after Kent and EDE's posts, now I have something to think about. Too bad this discussion was never had at DC...I think fleshing out what makes the Trapper and his story 'work' here is helping convince me whats right for the character.
I generally think that up until TMK, the character, while visually appealing, never really worked for me, despite being a terribly interesting background/referred-to character in the early Silver Age.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Novelty, well that might well be what he is now. He the personification of entropy. The Spectre of vengeance?
If the Trapper needs a human host? Dynamo Boy? Maybe that explains his weaknesses'?
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
This thread got me to thinking about the Time Trapper's changing importance as a Legion villain over the years. In "The Legion Sourcebook" reference work in Amazing World of DC Comics # 9, in 1975, he is accorded only three paragraphs and no drawing. Of course his latest encounter with the Legion was in Adventure # 338, a full decade earlier. Clearly, he wasn't that significant a villain, even though his identity was still a mystery.
In the years afterwards, Legion writers explored and exceeded the Trapper's potential. He became a convenient villain, one who was easily relied upon for anniversary issues (v.3, # 45) and mini-series (Legionnaires 3) I think all of this attention and his nebulous origins have watered down the character. He's become too easy to use since his powers and motivations are ill-defined, as proven by the revelation that he's Rokk Krinn!
For this reason, I would rather see his mystery solved one way or another. This would not ruin his potential for further use as a villain, but it might curtail writers' willingness to do anything they want with him.
Posted by Novelty on :
Jorg, I don't mean to make the TT as a spirit of Vengence... but to share characteristics - strengths, weaknesses, powers, etc. with the Spectre. That would immediately make the TT more defined since quite a bit is known about the Spectre, but it would also mean a link to the current 20th Century universe...
Posted by stephbarton on :
Geez, some good points. I have to say I'm now more in Kent's camp. Drop some hints at who the TT is, but not actual 'reveal,' leave it as something for the reader individually to decide if he's so-and-so or such-and-such, or maybe hint that he is a former Legionnaire, but never show which...
I agree that making him too vague makes it too easy for writers to use him poorly and to water him down. but I also like the idea of not knowing who he really is, I want him to be a clearly defined character but where you are kept guessing about his true identity.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Novelty, I understand. Both characters are personifications of an unrelated force that need a host.
Posted by Lucifer07 on :
I know i'm in the minority here but I'd really like TT to be the Legions' version of Kang. I'm not saying he needs to be a decendant of a Legionnnaire or even Dyanmo boy, but It would be nice if all 52 new Earths or mulitverses ended at one point an "all roads end here" kinda thing with the Trapper being the master of that domain.
With that done I would agree with Ducks' rule tho, that TT should be vauge and his origins only hinted at. Could he be Dynamo boy from the Pre Crisis? Why does he only attack the Legion? What was up with playing Chess with the Pre crisis Brainiac, Does he also play solitary with Vandal Savage?
We could speculate on who he really is and various writers could add to the mythos. Or As I've said before The Legion could go the way of Avengers Forever and define what the Trapper intentions were over the years. how the crisies affected him, drop the hints at who he could be, and lay the ground work for future plots with him.
Ah to dream.
Posted by Seth Gaterra on :
quote:Originally posted by Lucifer07: I know i'm in the minority here but I'd really like TT to be the Legions' version of Kang. I'm not saying he needs to be a decendant of a Legionnnaire or even Dyanmo boy, but It would be nice if all 52 new Earths or mulitverses ended at one point an "all roads end here" kinda thing with the Trapper being the master of that domain.
Are you using the comparison to Kang to include the Council of Crosstime Kangs, or not? Because what I was seeing as an origin is that each timeline has its own being seeking to rule time, and they're all fighting it out for who will rule the last timeline that exists before entropy takes its toll. Because whoever is present at the end of the multiverse would take a role in the next cycle of existence. Sort of like Galan of Taa having the willpower to endure through the Big Crunch of the previous universe, to come out of the Big Bang as Galactus... if that makes any sense?
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
No multiple Trappers. I like the idea of 52 multiverses and just one Trapper.
He toys with the 52 different Legions. It would be neat to see a mini where a team of Legionnaires from different timelines...all the ones we know and a few more go up against the Trapper. Like Avengers Forever.
Posted by Lucifer07 on :
No council Seth, just a mini that ties all the Trapper stories together. From the Controller Trapper to the Rokk as Trapper story line. It should define the Trapper, making him THE Legion Villain.
I agree with Jorge that the mini should use Legionnaires from the various Earths with maybe the Infinite Man or The Last Monitor Gathering them together.
Posted by doublechinner on :
For some reason I just had this vision of the trapper as a multiple-entity representation of Legion fandom, each trying to "trap" the Legion in his/her favorite era and destroy the others.
Still meta, but slightly less so, I like the idea of 1 trapper/multiple trappers testing/eliminating versions of the Legion for some ultimate, secret purpose.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: For some reason I just had this vision of the trapper as a multiple-entity representation of Legion fandom, each trying to "trap" the Legion in his/her favorite era and destroy the others.
Still meta, but slightly less so, I like the idea of 1 trapper/multiple trappers testing/eliminating versions of the Legion for some ultimate, secret purpose.
You may have something there. The Trapper created the legion anyways. Maybe he wins...and after destroying them he tries to bring them back. maybe the multiverse are all attempts by the trapper to recreate the Legion.
I do like the idea of just one Trapper in the multiverse. That would be a rocking mini!
Posted by SiliconDream on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: No multiple Trappers. I like the idea of 52 multiverses and just one Trapper.
Yeah, that's what I like too. He can have as many different origins in different universes as writers want, but the final entity should be aware of all of them.
Just about the only thing I liked from the Trapper's reboot appearance was the fact that he knew about his origins in previous timelines, and didn't particularly seem to value one over the others.
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