To me, this line expresses one of the core principles of the Legion. Legionnaires are selflessly devoted to each other, individually and collectively, and will do anything for their teammates or for the team as a whole. This is why they work so well together and why all Legionnaires are equally valuable, regardless of their relative power levels.
So for example, as much as Phantom Girl disliked Sun Boy during the Levitz era, I think she would gladly have laid down her life for him, simply because they were both loyal Legionnaires. Devotion to the Legion is a principle that transcends the individual identities or personalities of the Legionnaires. It's what makes it possible for such radically different people to get along so well together.
Some of the more interesting Legion stories have dealt with what happens when this principle breaks down, or when various Legionnaires are conflicted as to how best to follow it. For example, in Levitz's Conspiracy storyline, the four conspirators take actions that are detrimental to teamwork and team unity, but their larger purpose is to protect the rest of the team, by making sure that they will be the only ones to risk their lives against the Time Trapper.
Mutual loyalty is what the Legion is all about, in my opinion. And since Geoff Johns understands this so well, maybe he would be the best choice as the next Legion writer.
Responses?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
One of the things that intrigues me about that line is what it is a response to.
Geo-Force: "That's not only ridiculous, Superman, it is insane."
To me, that sounds suspiciously like an acknowledgement of all the comic fans out there who *don't* really get what the Legion is all about.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Where is this line from?
I think your argument is sound, Sir Tim, but it applies not only to the Legion, but to the military, the police, and most such organizations.
As positive as that sounds, there is a danger in it as well. Cover-ups of abuses and other forms of "groupthink" can be linked to the fact that people don't want to upset the group or air a dissenting opinion. I haven't read the Conspiracy story in awhile, but it seemed to me that Levitz was working with this same idea: those four were making a decision they believed to be right but knew the rest of the Legion would not support, hence the need to do it in secret.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
It's from the previews to the upcoming JSA issue.
Actually, this story sounds a lot like the Conspiracy storyline, in that it apparently features six or seven Legionnaires who are basically willing to sacrifice themselves, and are doing so without telling the other Legionnaires (they mention keeping the "Big Three" in the dark). Similarly, part of the Conspiracy storyline is that the conspirators were going on what they believed to be a suicide mission, and that's why they didn't tell the other members.
For that matter, in the original Lightning Lad revival story, Mon-El kept the means of revival a secret for most of the story, because he planned on sacrificing himself to revive Garth.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
"We were Legion."
With those three words, in that context, following that set of flashbacks, Johns out-Legioned the entire Waid run.
Posted by brigort on :
Well said Sir Tim. As to this part of what you said:
quote:Originally posted by Sir Tim Drake: Mutual loyalty is what the Legion is all about, in my opinion. And since Geoff Johns understands this so well, maybe he would be the best choice as the next Legion writer.
Responses?
I agree with you 100 percent! He nailed the JSA and made it work, and in just a few short scenes, shows he understands the Legion more than anyone that has written the title in years. We should be so lucky to have him take over the book.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Oh yes but we've said this before about writers that accomplished a snappy line. Johns has other habits that might not be so preferred on the book. Decapitation, disembowling, refrigerators all over the place, that sort of thing.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
quote:Originally posted by Sir Tim Drake: Legionnaires are selflessly devoted to each other, individually and collectively, and will do anything for their teammates or for the team as a whole.
Of course one of the best examples of this is the fact that they retold the tale of ERG-1's sacrifice to save Gym (even after he had been rejected) as an example of what it means to be a Legionnaire... (I'm just sayin')
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
This was a very touching line and I think we react to it because our devotion to the Legion is unexplainable, as EDE pointed out.
It had me wondering why the same sense of devotion wouldn't be felt by Superman for the JLA. Is it because the Legion came together as teens and, for the most part, didn't have any hero status prior to joining? Once they're adults, they acquire families and the devotion is divided. Their superhero identity comes from being part of the group, whereas the JLA were active and established as individuals prior to joining.
The Teen Titans don't seem to generate this same sentiment - because they were initially sidekicks and more devoted to their elder superhero? There is certainly something unique about the Legion.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: One of the things that intrigues me about that line is what it is a response to.
Geo-Force: "That's not only ridiculous, Superman, it is insane."
To me, that sounds suspiciously like an acknowledgement of all the comic fans out there who *don't* really get what the Legion is all about.
Well it depends if you mean the lightning rods and the proty thing is ridiculous or the members willing to sacrafice themselves to revive Lightning Lad. Posted by doublechinner on :
The exchange between Superman and Geo Force is brilliant! Kudos to Geoff for saying so much, so succinctly.
My take, for what it's worth, is this. A couple of times in my life, when I was an "adolescent," I have been in situations with a group of friends where our affection and devotion to each other seemed "inexplicable." Looking back, it was beautiful and terrifying at the same time. And I outgrew it. I remain friends with some (not all), but in an adult, "I live 1000s of miles away from you" sort of way. I think this is what Supes is tapping into. He is devoted to the League, no question about it, but it is not a fanatical, "us against the world" sort of devotion. How could it be? He's no longer a youth.
Posted by Crujectra of Psyonia on :
I think in many ways, the Legion is much truer to the heroic ideal than many other groups. Maybe it's because, for the most part, they're it... there aren't dozens of groups and hundreds of soloists running around, fighting the good fight.
Not to mention, they operate on a far grander scale than any other group in history. Even when the JSA was the only group around, they still were only protecting America (even though their scope was global). The Legion defends the galaxy. Every single member was crucial to protecting the universe. That's alot to carry on your shoulders, and is bound to push teamwork to a new level.
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: My take, for what it's worth, is this. A couple of times in my life, when I was an "adolescent," I have been in situations with a group of friends where our affection and devotion to each other seemed "inexplicable." Looking back, it was beautiful and terrifying at the same time. And I outgrew it. I remain friends with some (not all), but in an adult, "I live 1000s of miles away from you" sort of way. I think this is what Supes is tapping into. He is devoted to the League, no question about it, but it is not a fanatical, "us against the world" sort of devotion. How could it be? He's no longer a youth.
Maybe another lesson of the Legion is that you don't need to outgrow your youthful enthusiasm and devotion -- that this feeling is worth preserving into adulthood.
And maybe this is the real utopian principle behind the Legion. In the 20th and 21st century, it's not possible to remain a teenager all your life; sooner or later you have to wake up to the harsh realities of adult existence. Maybe the 31st century is a time when youth and adulthood are no longer so incompatible.
[ May 29, 2007, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Sir Tim Drake ]
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
The Legion has the distinction of growing up together -- they join as teens, live together, have no outside life and die as Legionnaires. There aren't any other teams I can think of that spend *all their time* together. (maybe certain versions of the Doom Patrol, but I'm not sure)
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: The Teen Titans don't seem to generate this same sentiment - because they were initially sidekicks and more devoted to their elder superhero? There is certainly something unique about the Legion.
While the sentiment hasn't been as consistently there as it has with the LSH, the Titans *have* exemplified it, from time to time. For me, most notably in the Technis Imperitave mini-series (JLA/TITANS?) from a few years ago.
That story saw characters like Wally West and Dick Grayson aligning themselves with the Titans against their mentors, pretty much unapologetically. The series that followed pretty much squandered the ideals that the mini gave the characters, though a couple of flashbacks set in the Fab Five's past hinted at what fun a look at this time in the characters' lives could be.
I'd love to see DC do a mini-series every year reuniting the Fab Five and other adult Titans. They needn't be a full-time team, but a group of people who catch up on each others' lives; facing problems both human and villainous. The mini could include lots of flashbacks similar to those in the first year or so of the previous Titans book.
All of which leads me to conclude that Red Arrow wouldn't find the idea Superman expresses 'insane' at all. I'd guess that he'd recognize it in himself. In fact, this mission oughtta lead to him spending some time with Dick Grayson and Donna-- maybe prompting them to look for Wally and Garth?
[ May 29, 2007, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Mystery Lad ]
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I agree about the Titans. I alwas thought Wally should've been in the Titans after he became the Flash.
Posted by rtvu2 on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: "We were Legion."
With those three words, in that context, following that set of flashbacks, Johns out-Legioned the entire Waid run.
Agreed.
Posted by Chemical King on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: "We were Legion."
With those three words, in that context, following that set of flashbacks, Johns out-Legioned the entire Waid run.
Well written Kent. I think the whole Waid arc is totally missing the most important ingredient: The Legion SPIRIT. Even if the last storyline was a decent scifi superhero story, it still was kind of hovering in thin air, if you know what I mean. The Waid run is missing the basics to build on.
Just seeing Wildfire again, just reading Superman telling the story of Lightning Lad getting ressurrected for me has a much higher impact. The current Legion is lacking its own history - like a new Major League Baseball team being compared to the Red Sox or Cubs.
I really am very excited about the old guys returning in the old costumes. So when they now are starting to even retell the old stories - would a reprint of "Secrets of the LSH" be a good idea now??? - there seems to be reason for hope that a major part of DC history might be reestablished very soon, returning the heart and soul of the Legion by bringing back history. Even if they probably will leave out 5YL.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
ehhh I don't know for all this philosophizing.
Legion seemed to me just the neighborhood club and the others didn't. Remember, Legion came before Legion's origin. They were just a bunch of kid that would occasionally hold neighborhood tryouts for new members, plus they had something even better than a tree-house or our old duct-tape and refrigerator box hangout. They had an upside down rocket ship. They were to me the neighborhood school club that won the championship, not the after-season all-star team put together to reward individuals.
LSHers were buddies first and the others were powers first.
Just my take as I remember it and I have to believe to some extent that's true for all of us. Compare this message board to most of the others you know of?
[ May 29, 2007, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Blockade Boy ]
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
quote:Originally posted by DrakeB3004: The Legion has the distinction of growing up together -- they join as teens, live together, have no outside life and die as Legionnaires. There aren't any other teams I can think of that spend *all their time* together. (maybe certain versions of the Doom Patrol, but I'm not sure)
This is important too. The Titans sort of grew up together, but most of them started out as sidekicks of other superheroes, so they had some sort of a well-established identity prior to joining the team. With the Legion, this was only true in Superboy and Supergirl's case.
[qb]Originally posted by Mystery Lad:
quote: While the sentiment hasn't been as consistently there as it has with the LSH, the Titans *have* exemplified it, from time to time. For me, most notably in the Technis Imperitave mini-series (JLA/TITANS?) from a few years ago.
That story saw characters like Wally West and Dick Grayson aligning themselves with the Titans against their mentors, pretty much unapologetically. The series that followed pretty much squandered the ideals that the mini gave the characters, though a couple of flashbacks set in the Fab Five's past hinted at what fun a look at this time in the characters' lives could be.[/qb[/
I really liked JLA/Titans, despite my distaste for Phil Jimenez's artwork. And I also thought that Devin's ongoing Titans series was very disappointing.
A Titans: Year One miniseries would certainly be nice. Maybe they could even get Nick Cardy to draw some of it.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Lad: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fat Cramer: [qb] In fact, this mission oughtta lead to him spending some time with Dick Grayson and Donna-- maybe prompting them to look for Wally and Garth?
Where are Wally and Garth? I haven't been following Titans lately. I wish the dirty rotten bastards hadn't Ravenized and then killed Lilith though. GRRR!
Posted by Lucifer07 on :
So what about us? Our passion for the Legion is legendary. What makes Legion fans so devoted to the Legion?
I'll admit growing up as a only child I remember how cool it was to go visit my cousins. It may sound goofy now, but to a kid I could relate to Superboy going to hang out with other kids who had super powers. That is what drew me in.
And I stayed with them because as they grew up so did I. The same could be said for the Titans but the Legion had more going for it. The Sci-Fi aspect, A huge cast. Powerful Villians, and of course Khunds,Dominion,Controllers,etc.
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
quote:Originally posted by Lucifer07: So what about us? Our passion for the Legion is legendary. What makes Legion fans so devoted to the Legion?
When I started to really get into the Legion, at the beginning of the Archie Legion era, I was a lonely, socially awkward twelve-year-old. My junior high school was full of cliques, none of which I belonged to, and my classmates were a bunch of jerks. So I was enchanted by the idea of a group of people my own age who loved each other and treated each other as equals. The superpowers didn't have much to do with it.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
This thread makes me happy.
Posted by SiliconDream on :
quote:"Our devotion to each other was unexplainable"
I kind of imagine Batman in the back muttering "Inexplicable, Clark. Aren't you supposed to be a journalist?"
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Sir Tim Drake:
quote:Originally posted by Lucifer07: So what about us? Our passion for the Legion is legendary. What makes Legion fans so devoted to the Legion?
When I started to really get into the Legion, at the beginning of the Archie Legion era, I was a lonely, socially awkward twelve-year-old. My junior high school was full of cliques, none of which I belonged to, and my classmates were a bunch of jerks. So I was enchanted by the idea of a group of people my own age who loved each other and treated each other as equals. The superpowers didn't have much to do with it.
I think a lot of us can relate. I have to say, that 'rebel without a cause/street smart Jo' helped influence how I acted a little, probably b/c I wanted to date girls that were like Tinya (early reboot Tinya.
Yes, Cobie ----------> girl crazy from day one.
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Yes, Cobie ----------> girl crazy from day one.
I hear the nurses in the delivery room filed a sexual harrassment suit.
Posted by Tromium on :
Actually, the motivations of the characters in the original "wandholding" ritual in 1963 were quite explainable. Most of them had fairly clear-cut reasons for wanting to risk his/her life, whether it was strong affection for the deceased (Light Lass, Sun Boy), feelings of responsibility for having sent him to his death (Mon-El) or guilt (Saturn Girl). As the star of the show, Superboy could not *not* be there, and Cham was a part of the needed plot device.
It never entered my mind that it had anything to do with team-wide "devotion" to one another. Would Cosmic Boy have willingly volunteered to hold a wand? I'm not so sure. When Ayla disguised herself as Garth come back from the dead, Cos's first impulse was to get "him" expelled from the team.
That the sacrifice has now become a symbol for a degree of team devotion and unity that did not exist at the time seems a bit strange to me.
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
Even though I grew up with the postZH Legion, that line still brought a tear to my eye.
I dunno about the lack of camaraderie then, since I haven't read everything, but the Legion did squabble from time to time. Remember when Cham did the whole suicide squad on Khundia thing in the middle of the Levitz run? And of course Star Boy's expulsion. *shrug* maybe we're overanalyzing. But the Legion always seemed to pull together despite all this stuff.
I think one of the things that makes the Legion so special is that they started out their heroic careers a) as pioneers (they were the first heroes of their era, pretty much) and b) they started out as a team/members of a team, instead of the JSA or JLA who had solo careers first. I think this would add a lot to the devotion they felt for each other.
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