Okay, putting people's personal preferences aside, my belief is that if there is any one Legionnaire who must be part of the LSH in any version or reboot or cartoon or whatever, then that Legionnaire is Brainy.
I would go so far to say that absolutely any other Legionnaire is expendable except for him. If you take Brainy out for an extended period, kill him off or whatever, The LSH is not the LSH without its Brainy.
So any other Legionnaire can be killed off, depowered or otherwise done away with. Bar none.
As my evidence, just name any incarnation of the Legion or any prolonged period of time where Brainy was absent. Can we honestly name any other Legionnaire that applies to?
Agree or disagree? If agree, why do you think this is so? If disagree, make your argument as to who is the one essential Legionnaire if it's not Brainy?
Posted by Blacula on :
I disagree.
Before I explain why, let me just put this out there - I do NOT like the character of Brainiac 5. Once upon a time I might've said I hate him, but that's not true. I don't hate any of the Legionnaires and certainly none of the classic pre-Crisis members. He's been involved in SO MANY Legion stories over the years that it's impossible not to recognise the fact that his presence has had a big impact on this team. And he's even had some cool moments along the way.
But all that said, I still don't like him. And I certainly do not think he is the one indispensable member of this team.
First of all, I don't think there are ANY indispensable members of this team. The closest this book ever had to an indispensable member was probably Superboy (Kal-el) - and we all know that life carried on after he left.
Secondly, there has been a time when Brainy was more or less absent from this book and IMO the book did not suffer for it at all - in fact I think it was only strengthened by his absence.
That period is of course the post-Emerald Vi 'Legionnaires' book which focused on those members still in the 30th Century, while Brainy's 20th Century exploits were documented in the 'Legion of Super-Heroes' book.
IMO 'Legionnaires' was BY FAR the better book during this period (and not only did it shine without Brainiac 5 but also without those other two claimaints for his 'indispensable' crown - Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy). And at no point did Brainy's absence make me feel like I wasn't reading a 'true' Legion book or whatever.
IMO a 'true' Legion book is a book that recognises and realises the potential in every member of this team and gives them all an equal showcasing. Unfortunately, for whatever reason (but usually just the personal preference of whoever the writer is) that is often not the case, and this book instead becomes something more like 'Brainiac 5 and the Legion of Super-Heroes' or 'Brainiac 5 and Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy and (insert whoever the current writer's favourite is) and the Legion of Super-Heroes' than the book it should be - and shines when it is.
In fact, I would say that a lot of the time, the presence of Brainiac 5 (and the other panel-hogs) is actually a detriment to this book. Instead of the writers falling back on those same old characters out of either preference or habit and giving them their umpteenth line of dialogue or characterisation or storyline, they could instead be giving all that to some of the more under-utilised members of this team, a lot of whom could easily fill the roles that those panel-hogs do. The times the writers did do that we got instant fan-favourite characters (for example Dream Girl, Element Lad and Sensor Girl).
This is also what occurred in the 'Legionnaires' book during the Team 20/Team 30 split period. Without Brainiac 5 there, the writers were able to show that Invisible Kid is just as intelligent and interesting a character as Brainy is and more than capable of filling in not only his "smart guy" role on the team but also the team's leadership.
And if it hadn't been Invisible Kid then it would've been someone else. This is because it isn't Brainiac 5 they're replacing - it's his role on the team, his position in the group dynamic. When you break them down to their barest characterisations, every hero team in comics is made up of the same personalities and traits. I'm gonna use the Satellite-era JLA, the Legion, the Wolfman/Perez Titans and the X-Men for examples -
* Strong Leader type (usually male) - Superman, Cosmic Boy, Nightwing, Cyclops... * Strong but Nurturing Deputy Leader type (usually female) - Wonder Woman, Saturn Girl, Troia, Phoenix... * Aloof Knowledgeable type - Batman, Brainiac 5, Raven, Professor X... * Comedic Hot-head type (usually has self-worth issues) - Firestorm, Changeling, Wildfire, Iceman... * Stoic but Silent type (usually male and usually powerful) - Martian Manhunter, Cyborg, Mon-el, Colossus... and so on.
But any new character (or any old character with a new spin) could come along and fill any of those character's places on their team. The problem the Legion has is that the core membership of the book has stayed so unchanged over the many years and reboots and so on, that most people find it hard to imagine anyone other than Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl and Brainiac 5 (and all the rest) in the roles they have been traditionally given.
And yet the JLA has seen Superman and Aquaman and Batman and Captain Atom and Martian Manhunter and who knows who else all successfully fill the 'Strong Leader type' position on that team and at no point did that book ever stop being the JLA. In fact nearly all of those above mentioned JLA and Titans and X-Men characters have come and gone from those teams over the years and while I'd say that there were plenty of people who considered those characters indispensable while they were there, those books all still did perfectly fine without them. Sure, some of those characters may be back on those teams now but I blame that more on the cyclical nature of comic books than any type of "This book will die without X" reasoning.
IMO the fact that Brainiac 5 and the others have been spotlighted so heavily over the years (and have therefore become more popular) doesn't mean the book would fall apart without them. Instead new characters would get spotlighted and soon enough they'd become popular and then one day the book would become unimagineable without them.
But this all just IMHO.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Blacula makes a strong case with his Team 20/30 example. The Brainy-less LEGIONNAIRES was definitely the strongest title at that time.
And Brainy has never been on any of my personal favorite Legionnaire lists.
BUT... despite all that, I've also always felt in the back of my mind that he really IS one Legionnaire that should and must always be around in some fashion.
The "Only essential" member... maybe not, but definitely ON that list of most essentials (which probably would not match my "favorites" list at ALL).
[ May 15, 2007, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: MLLASH ]
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Blacula does make great points.
But I see where Lard Lad is coming from. If you ask me to best describe the Legion using one member I would say B5.
I think there is a reason that the main character in L.E.G.I.O.N. is Coluan.
Essential? I think essential in the overall mythos yes. Essential on the team at all times? No. While I don't think any member is essential...B5 comes closest. Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Blacula makes an excellent case that there are no essential Legionnaires, only essential roles that must be filled in any team.
It's somewhat disappointing to see how easily comic book characters can be reduced to a category (the strong leader, the nurturing deputy, etc.). I've always liked to think of the above mentioned characters as well rounded personalities, not character types.
Perhaps this is why certain characters seem essential to the Legion: because they fill those roles so well.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Hmm... I actually think that Brainiac Five becomes far less "essential" to the team once you take out Superboy and Supergirl, and actually kind of loses his importance to the Legion dynamic once they're gone. Once you lose the whole "friendship/romance with his hereditary enemy" aspect, Brainy becomes little more than the generic "aloof smart guy" that Blacula suggests, and has generally been portrayed as a kind of annoying one at that.
[ May 15, 2007, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
I agree with you completely, EDE. The Superboy/Supergirl dynamic is a very important factor with B-5.
I just wanted to add that in many of the past Elseworlds tales (Superboy Legion, the Camelot Legion, Wildfire as the Last Legionnaire) Brainiac 5 plays a minor roll or none at all.
That said, if you had to pick one of seventy-plus Legionnaires who has had the greatest impact on the group to date, Brainiac 5 would have to top the list (with Superboy).
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
I have to agree with everyone that Blacula made a powerful case that there is no essential Legionnaire including Brainiac 5.
Posted by wndola1 on :
In my case I have found I lose interest without brainy. The legion is a team and any team works like a body. someone is the eyes someone the legs someone is the heart and Brainy is of course the brain. I would argue that every story needs a brain and a heart or it just isn't as interesting.
Posted by Tromium on :
Brainy's arguably the most *recognizable* Legionnaire apart from the Super-Cousins. His intellectual power is unique, his emotional range is vast and he almost never fails to intrigue.
Maybe he's not "essential" but he's pretty dang cool.
Posted by Matthew E on :
The thing about Brainy is that he's so useful from a storytelling point of view. You can always use him to come up with a solution, a potential solution, or, if all else fails, a whole new problem.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Brainy is certainly useful and interesting, but that's not the same as essential.
I think what the Legion has often needed is a strong viewpoint character, someone who is more or less in the center of the action. Even TV shows with ensemble casts have that one character who is the "head" or the focus. (I'm thinking of Capt. Furillo on "Hill Street Blues" or Dr. Westphall on "St. Elsewhere.") With the Legion, Superboy filled that role for many years. Without him, whoever was the leader filled that role to one degree or another. But sometimes even the leaders haven't been the most interesting or useful characters. Perhaps this is why Brainy seems essential to some.
Posted by wndola1 on :
I think the real question is would you read the Legion without Brainy. and thinking about it... I tend to lose interest in storyilines that don't at least include a frame or two of Braininess. Any ideas why? And I am talking all Brainy versions.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Blacula does make good points. Yes, Legionnaires was the better title during that storyline, and Lyle did fill the "smart guy" role very well. But let's say, if Brainy was killed before the Team 20 LSHers returned, would Lyle have filled that void indefinitely?
But I'd venture to say that Brainy's importance goes beyond filling his "smart guy" role in so many ways it's hard to put them all into words.
For one, on the most superficial level, he stands out as the 'green guy' in what has still been a dominantly caucasian humanoid super-team. I remember noticing an LSH cover for the first time as a kid (I think it was the Space Circus issue with the purple background) and my eye being drawn to Brainy. "Wow, a green man! Cool!" I thought. Let's face it, there's been the occasional Gates, Blok, Tellus and Jacques Foccart, but Brainy has always been there to present at least some visual diversity along with Cham. Maybe he's essentially a white guy painted green, but he stands out.
I suppose you could replace him with another Coluan or a purple guy like Jed Rikane, but I don't think it would be the same.
But on a deeper level, Brainy's often had one of the more defined personalities among the Legionnaires. The pre-Crisis Brainy was emotional, childish and occasionally insane. Post-Zero Hour, he was a bit of a misanthrope who hid behind his intellect but had a soft side. WaK-boot he's been Macchiavellian but with a definite humanity underneath.
Often other Legionnaires could be indistinguishable from each other personalty-wise, but Brainy's always been watchable and distinct.
So I argue vehemently against Brainy being expendable on Blacula's basis of another being able to fill his archetype.
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
But aren't we talking about essential not expendable?
I would say that the legion would be less without Brainiac 5, but I think there would be a Legion and a Legion we would all read.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.: But aren't we talking about essential not expendable?
I would say that the legion would be less without Brainiac 5, but I think there would be a Legion and a Legion we would all read.
Quis, I guess one way of defining "essential" could be as "not expendable", right?
Yes, we would all read it because we can't help ourselves, but wouldn't there be a huge void left? A void that could, perhaps, subtly derail the title? It's hard to say for sure because we've never seen this.
And though Legionnaires have a tendency to stay dead (at least in their respective continuities), wouldn't you somehow have the nagging suspicion that Brainy, of all of them, might end up the rare exception and be brought back?
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
The Legion would be considerably less enjoyable to me without Brainiac 5. Certainly the Legion is more than one person, or three founders; it would just be lacking something for me if there wasn't a Brainy - or someone very much like him. He's been there so long, and has been so integral to many stories that he has become entrenched as one of the core characters.
However, I have wondered what the Legion would be like without him. In the pre-boot, other legionnaires were scientists as well, if not up to his level. Post-boot, Invisible Kid has been the exceptionnaly bright guy. All these science-y characters have been much better balanced, from an emotional/social standpoint, than Brainy. So we'd maybe have less spectacular tech, but fewer disasters like Computo. We'd still have lots of character stories and sub-plots but perhaps none so endearing as those involving the emotionally-bumbling Brainy. There would be fewer situations for which to speculate about the constraints and ethics of science, since the "normal" smart guys couldn't invent time bubbles and Computos or steal dead corpses for revival experiments.
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: And though Legionnaires have a tendency to stay dead (at least in their respective continuities), wouldn't you somehow have the nagging suspicion that Brainy, of all of them, might end up the rare exception and be brought back?
Brainy would be the rare exception who would bring himself back....
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I guess I agree that there'd be a huge void left by Brainy's absence, but I actually think the same is true of almost all of the pre-Shooter Legionnaires (and probably only Wildfire among the later Legionnaires). Would the title be derailed without one of them? I certainly think that's true of Superboy, but I'm not sure about any of the others, Brainy included.
Posted by Blacula on :
The hard part about this discussion is that it's such a 'What if...' scenario. Brainy has been so omnipresent in the Legion's books over its decades-long history that it's really hard to imagine the book without him. And this is probably true more-so for fans of his character (of which I am sure there are many).
That said, while it's hard to imagine now, I still think that those other teams I provided as examples are evidence that even the most intrinsic/iconic/indelible/indispensable/whatever characters are replaceable.
And I would respectfully argue that all those points Lard Lad mentioned, while making Brainy a great character, don't make him an essential or indispensable one.
Firstly as to his appearance. Yes, Brainy is one of those few Legionnaires who absolutely stand out from the crowd because of his green skin. And yes, it does make him look great. But I would argue that there are other equally as visually arresting Legionnaires who have been absent from the team for long periods of time and which hasn't made the book feel any less like the Legion, or created a void (except in the hearts of the fans of those characters).
Case in point #1 - Chameleon Boy. I would argue that his unique appearance is even MORE important to the overall look of the Legion than is Brainy's. Unlike the many Brainiacs in the DCU there is only one Chameleon Boy. And his tenure in the Legion has probably been just as omnipresent as Brainy's has. But in the animated 'Legion of Super-Heroes in the 31st Century' cartoon Chameleon Boy is nowhere to be seen. And I'm sure a lot would agree that that cartoon is close to the best depiction of the Legion that the team has seen in many years (the last half of the season anyway).
Case in point #2 - Colossal Boy. I would argue that a growing/giant-like character is another of those visually striking members that are absolutely essential in portraying the grandeur and uniqueness of the Legion in their group shots. But Colossal Boy was killed off in the reboot and his role was filled by Vi after she gained his powers. Now, I was personally unhappy with this development and in my mind it did create a void in the Legion. But I was biased because Gim's my favourite member. And a lot of fans seemed to support or at least tolerate the development so the book soldiered on.
So, what I'm trying to say with my above two points is that no character's appearance is so unique and interesting that it makes them essential to the team (eg. Chameleon Boy) and no character's appearance is so unique and interesting that it can't just be replaced by a new character with the same look (eg. Colossal Boy/Shrinking Violet). And that includes Brainiac 5.
Now for his character - no doubt that Brainy has enjoyed the benefits of being in the favourites of a lot of writers of this book, and also that his role as the 'Knowledgeable' one has made him a key ingredient in many of the book's storylines. Because it's meant MUCH more time and space devoted to developing his character than most of the other members have had. This is why he probably has one of the most well-developed, fully rounded personalities on the team.
But my question is this - is that a good thing? Is it fair that he should keep getting so many layers to his personality while other members of this team barely scrape by with one or two? How much more popular and interesting would those other members be if they had received half the time and attention he has? This gets back to my earlier claim that Brainiac 5 is actually a detriment to this team. As long as lazy writers fall back on him as their default 'Aloof Knowledgeable' type and give him all the panel-time and characterisation that that important archetype demands, the other members of this team who don't fit any of the archetypal roles (and there are a lot of them) will remain little seen and little developed characters.
But those characterisations that make Brainy seem so important to the book now could be easily taken up by whoever the writers chose to replace him, be it one character or a number of them. Just as Changeling was once the 'Comedic Hot-head' of the Titans, now it is Kid Devil. And just as the 'Comedic Hot-head' of the JLA was once Firestorm, now it is Red Arrow. IMO receiving good characterisation doesn't make a character inexpendable, it just makes them a good character. And unfortunately, good characters can (and have) be written out. The only hope is that another good character can come along to take their place.
Posted by wndola1 on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula:
Case in point #1 - Chameleon Boy. I would argue that his unique appearance is even MORE important to the overall look of the Legion than is Brainy's. Unlike the many Brainiacs in the DCU there is only one Chameleon Boy. And his tenure in the Legion has probably been just as omnipresent as Brainy's has. But in the animated 'Legion of Super-Heroes in the 31st Century' cartoon Chameleon Boy is nowhere to be seen. And I'm sure a lot would agree that that cartoon is close to the best depiction of the Legion that the team has seen in many years (the last half of the season anyway).
There have been 3 similar durlans that I know of. There is one in the black ops of the GL Corps, Vril Dox had a Durlan Mentor and of course Cham.
Posted by Blacula on :
^^^ I meant recurring characters. That Durlan GL was in like 1 issue and the Durlan L.E.G.I.O.N. member disappeared after about 5.
Posted by Matthew E on :
Well, there's Yera. And R.J. Brande, if you want to count him. Chameleon Chief.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The Composite Man!
Posted by Blacula on :
You're right - I forgot about all them.
I don't think the existence of any of those characters negates the point of my argument though that IMO Chameleon Boy's 'look' is more indelibly "Legion" than Brainy's is.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
To rebut Blacula's rebuttal of my rebuttal (head hurts!):
Most of Blacula's first post of page 2 concentrates on the visual aspect that Brainy brings to the table that I mentioned. I never said that Brainy represents the sole character adding a little visual diversity. In fact, I even mentioned Cham briefly as doing that also on a consistent basis.
In a way Brainy and Cham represent separately the two major features that used to be the archetype for aliens, specifically Martians: green men with antennae. Brainy's the green man, and Cham has the antennae. And, really, the two characters have most consistently represented "alien-ness" throughout the Legion's various incarnations, the main exception being the cartoon, in which Cham hasn't appeared yet.
Blacula also mentions Gim. Yeah, Gim stands out in the group shots alright, just as Giant Man/Goliath has with the Avengers and Atlas has with the Thunderbolts. Of course, all three characters are caucasian humans.....
Even so, as I said in my last post of page one, the visual diversity is just the most superficial thing that Brainy brings to the table. What really makes Brainy essential is how he transcends the superficial and brings so much more to the table than his looks or his archetype. Like all good, or even great, characters in fiction, he feels like he's someone we know...like he's real.
I mean, do must of you feel, as Blacula apparently does, that Brainy's just an archetype given glorification by a long string of writers who all fancy him? Is he essentially the same character as Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Doc Magnus, Hank McCoy and all those others because he happens to be the "smart guy"? I don't think so. Those guys are all good characters in their own right, but they are not interchangeable with Querl Dox.
As a guy who fancies himself a writer, I believe that really good characters write themselves. Brainy has probably gotten so much screen time among so very many different writers because of all the Legionnaires, they feel they know him the best. And if you know a character, that character writes himself.
So I would put it out there that it's not the laziness of the writers or favoritism that causes him to be featured so prominently; it's the character "telling" the writers that he should be showcased. That's why Brainiac 5 is always front and center.
And that's why he's essential to the Legion, IMO, more than anyone else.
Posted by Jerry on :
Excellent discussion.
There have been times when Brainy has been overused. I would really like to see a nice long story arc without him that would give some others a chance to shine. I am also interested to see the how different writers portray Brainy so differently. Sometimes he is nice, and other times he is rude and arrogant. Waid brought back the rude arrogant Brainiac 5, who I don't enjoy. I hope the new writers soften him up a bit. One of my favorite portrayals was the "Calvin" Brainy during Legion Lost.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
By the way, I'm enjoying all the other opinions, as well, not just Blacula's. So don't feel that this thread is "The Great Debate featuring Lardy vs. Blacula". There's room for everyone's opinion, and I'd love it if more of you would go into the kind of depth that he and I are probing (either way) on the issue.
P.S. In case you're all wondering, Brainy's not my very favorite Legionnaire! So I'm not arguing for my fave--I've got two or three in front of him, each of whom haven't gotten much, if any, screentime since Zero Hour!
Posted by Jerry on :
I'm not sure that I would put Brainiac 5 in the "archtype" category, but there are a number of others who could fill that role if he wasn't on the team. I finally finished reading the recent Legion Showcase today. It contains examples of other Legionnaires completing scientific feats. Saturn Girl discovered the the first lead antidote for Mon-El. Mon-El discovered the metal that was later used for the flight rings. Dream Girl used Naltorian super science to give Light Lass her gravity nullifying powers.
Brainiac 5 has often fulfilled multiple roles like some of the other archtype charectars mentioned. These roles are: inventor, strategist, team doctor, and engineer. There have been versions of the Legion where others have picked up some of these tasks. For example, Kent Shakespeare picked up some of the field medical operations during the 5YL era. Chuck and Gear picked up some of the engineering duties in the post Zero Hour Legion. To me these examples show that Brainiac is not "essential". I would prefer to see some these duties split up.
Posted by Set on :
Everyone has 'roles' that get shunted to others when they are missing. If Garth isn't around to be 'the hothead,' or, more accurately, has matured beyond that role, Jo is there to pick up the slack. If Superboy isn't present in the WaK threeboot to play the 'stranger in a strange land' viewpoint of the audience, then Lyle gets to play that role.
But for me, the Legion just isn't the same without Garth, Imra and Rokk, to start. They have always felt like the backbone of the team, and when they were away raising kids or whatever, it often felt, to me anyway, like the book was adrift. (Although I have no idea what they were thinking with that id, ego, superego thing. The founders have never been that cut and dried, that two-dimensional, IMO.)
And yet, Superboy totally fails to fill that for me. Even when I was eight, he felt like someone shoved into the book so that kids who read Superman would pick up the Legion (kinda like shoving Wolverine into the Avengers...).
There were various periods that had no Kryptonians at all that had strong stories, and I think that Superboy's role as 'stranger in a strange land' made him eternally feel like an outsider, no matter that they gave him a flight ring. He was the only Legionnaire who went home to a completely other place, because being a Legionnaire wasn't actually a big part of his life, unlike many of the other Legionnaires. In fact, his Legion membership and even his teenage adventures, were retconned out of the character completely for over a decade, during which some of the best-selling Superman stories, and a couple of what I consider the strongest Legion stories, came about.
Brainy and Karate Kid were my two favorite Legionnaires, 'though. Neither of them could throw planets around or inhale a nuclear explosion or fly at ludicrous speed, shift to plaid and end up in the past or future. Each of them had a 'power' that seemed like something any kid reading the comic could have, the power to be smart, or the power to train really hard. Sure, none of us would be building force field belts or using a 'Klenarian muscle lock' to stop rampaging Kryptonians, but I felt *much* more able to relate to them than to the Superkids.
I was like, 'Wow, being smart is a super-power?' Whoo-hoo! For all his green skin, I always found Brainy much easier to relate to than other smart heros like Batman or Iron Man, with their billions of dollars and mansions and playboy lifestyles.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
In considering this question, I looked up the definition of "essential" in my old World Book Dictionary. It defines the word as "needed to make a thing what it is; necessary."
I find it hard to think of any single Legionnaire as fulfilling that quality. To me, the Legion has always been a team and it is the relationship of its members that is essential. This is true for any group, organization, or family.
Therefore, the relationship of Cosmic Boy, Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad, Brainiac 5, Mon-El, Star Boy, Shrinking Violet, etc., etc., etc., is what is truly essential, even if one or more of them is absent or leaves. After all, a relationship can endure even after death.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Jerry, HWW and Set all make some wonderful points, but somehow I feel that the most salient points of my argument are being overlooked.
Jerry focused on the roles/archetypes that the characters play (which is the cornerstone of Blacula's argument) and is in favor of those roles being more rotated among different Legionnaires in different stories. I'm fine with that idea, but I feel we've moved beyond the "smart guy" archetype as the real crux of the topic, in my mind at least. We've established, I think, that the "smart guy" aspect is not what makes him potentially essential.
Set reacts to Brainy on a personal level as being especially relatable because Brainy's "power" isn't really a super-power. I would argue that Brainy's 12th level intelligence is way beyond anything that you or I can achieve, but I respect where Set's coming from here. Problem is, if this is why Set believes Brainy's essential (that wasn't made clear), Set sabotages this by also mentioning Val. To me, Val's ability is more "every man" than Brainy's, so we can't argue Brainy's essential-ness from that angle.
Finally, He Who Wanders moves the argument away from a single character being essential to saying that the Legion's core concepts (specifically its the Legionnaires relationships to one another) are what make the Legion the Legion. I agree 100%, of course, because if the title ever completely abandons its core concepts and the way characters relate to each other, it simply can't be called the Legion of Super Heroes. And the idea of the topic was never about making the LSH a one-man book anyway. I know we need other characters and any team book needs to explore relationships among the team, not just the Legion.
However, HWW's post kind of derails us from what I'm trying to discover--whether there is just one character who absolutely has to be a Legionnaire for it to feel like the Legion, one who must be present in every incarnation and who can't be killed. One who is "essential". I'm putting it out there that I think it's Brainy.
What I'm asking you at this point, Legion Worlders, is not whether you think there's someone else who can be the smart guy or who can better represent 31st Century diversity or any of the other things...
Bottom Line: Is Brainiac 5, the character in his various incarnations...Precrisisthe guy who wept for Supergirl on that classic Steve Lightle cover, who went insane and created Omega, who created Computo which killed a Legionnaire and later gave that Legionnaire his force shield belt when she lost her second body...post-Zero Hour the aloof scientist begrudgingly drafted into the Legion but nonetheless often betrayed his affection for his teammates behind that veneer and became quite the comic sidebar with his interaction with a certain white monkey...WaK the man who did Macchiavelli proud but showed sizable cracks in the armor after he blamed himself for not preventing a teammate's death...animated or the sentient A.I. consumed with guilt over the villainous role his ancestor played in his idol Superman's life a millenium ago and determined to protect Superman's legacy...the essential character in the LSH mythos if you had to pick just one?
Try to strip everything about Brainy (leave behind the archetypes, et al...) to who he is at his core and what that has meant to the LSH, and then answer the question, if you can!
Posted by Matthew E on :
Well, what I think is this. If the Legion has an essential character it's Brainy, for several reasons: he's so useful for storytelling purposes, he's a great and interesting character in his own right, and he's an excellent example of how the Legion represents Superman's legacy.
But I don't think there are any essential characters in the Legion. I would happily collect a Legion comic where the roster consisted of Catspaw, Chemical King, Color Kid, Computo (Danielle Foccart), Crystal Kid, Devlin O'Ryan, Aqualad, Quantum Queen, Dragonmage, Flederweb, Dream Boy, Gear, Kono, Magno, Monstress, Quislet, Shikari, Spider Girl, Thunder and Veilmist.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Well, that's the first time I've been accused of derailing a topic (not that I haven't tried before ... ). I guess my problem with this question, Lardy, is that I'm not sure how you are defining "essential." In your most recent post, you write,
Try to strip everything about Brainy (leave behind the archetypes, et al...) to who he is at his core and what that has meant to the LSH, and then answer the question, if you can!
But if you strip away everything ABOUT Brainy, what is left? The story examples you cite in the preceding paragraph are memorable and important to Legion history, but similar examples could be found for any number of characters. Take Lightning Lad/Live Wire, for example:
LL is the guy who died fighting Zaryan the Conqueror, and who was then revived by his teammates (preboot) ... the guy who lost an arm (pre- and postboot) ... the guy who fought his evil brother (preboot, postboot, and cartoon) ... the guy who loved Saturn Girl (all incarnations) ... the leader who resigned or was forced to step down mid-term (preboot and cartoon) ... the hothead who gradually matured (postboot) ... the guy who sacrificed himself to stop the Progenitor (postboot). I would argue that these stories are just as important to the Legion's history as the ones you cite for Brainy.
Given that definition (or, in lieu of a definition, examples), LL is just as essential to the Legion as Brainy.
[ May 18, 2007, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I don't think any one character is essential.
But Brainy stand out due to his visuals and function on the team. Is Brainy the face of the Legion? Well he was featured on the cover of #1. He is usually involved in all of the Legion's classic stories.
The Legion may have different leaders but Brainy is always Merlin. I don't buy Invisible Kid as THE team scientist. Mostly cause I've read the Legion for 18 years off/on and have read a handful of stories with IK in them.
The Legion have quite a few members to fill each archetype/role except for Brainy's IMO. I didn't start reading till the early eighties but the founders save Saturn Girl never seemed like the backbone of the team for me.
Guys like Brainy, Cham, Mon-El I think stand out more.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I guess I just don't buy that your initial evidence establishes what you want it to establish, Lardy. Sure, it happens to be the case that Brainy has been featured in practically every incarnation of the Legion, and, according to the appearance counts that we've done in the past, has been featured more than any other Legionnaire. But... so what? Just because he's been used a lot doesn't make him necessary.
A more telling criterion is something else you suggested, whether the title would be "subtly derailed" without him. And I think we have clear evidence that there is one character that criterion applies to, and it ain't Brainy. It's Superboy. The simple fact is that ever since they decided to retcon Superboy out of the title, it's been suffering and struggling to find definition and purpose. That's not to say there haven't been some good stories since then, but it's clear that the title has had a serious "void" that it's trying to fill without him. That's why everytime they're trying to promote or draw attention to or "fix" the title in some way, they don't start highlighting Brainy a lot, but they add some member of the "S" family, as a kind of replacement Kal-El.
So, if I were to choose any member as the essential Legionnaire, it would have to be Superboy.
[ May 18, 2007, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: The simple fact is that ever since they decided to retcon Superboy out of the title, it's been suffering and struggling to find definition and purpose.
I think this is a serious factor but many other elements lead to the Legion struggles. The 5YG while a great story was suicide for the Legion. I question the quality and direction of the entire ZH Legion as well. The Levitz Legion was pretty popular. And yes after Crisis/Superboy's death it took a hit but it was still a top DC title. We've seen other titles that have dipped in sales when a writer was on it for a very long time.
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:That's why everytime they're trying to promote or draw attention to or "fix" the title in some way, they don't start highlighting Brainy a lot, but they add some member of the "S" family, as a kind of replacement Kal-El.
Yet Brainy was on the cover to #1. It's funny Waid is practically Superman/boys biggest fan yet I think he agrees Brainy is the cornerstone of the Legion. I'm sure I can find it in a interview somewhere.
For Avengers fans. Cap is considered Mr. Avenger yet as many Avengers fans know the Vision was the essential Avenger for a long long time. I use the Cap/Superboy comparison here. Hey, Byrne rebooted the Vision and the Avengers went to hell! (i think the Legion and Avengers going to hell had more to do with Levitz and Stern leaving)
Brainy may not be "essential" but he is the face of the Legion I think.
Posted by wndola1 on :
I just rarely see Superboy as a character in his Legion appearances... he is usually our POV. Most of his arcs were in his own stories. Besides for legal reasons we have to say Young Superman.
[ May 18, 2007, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: wndola1 ]
Posted by Tekwych on :
Having found the Legion in the mid 70's I have always felt Superboy was a waste of panels that could have gone to real Legionnaires. I can see a point for Brainy being central to the Legion.
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: Well, what I think is this. If the Legion has an essential character it's Brainy, for several reasons: he's so useful for storytelling purposes, he's a great and interesting character in his own right, and he's an excellent example of how the Legion represents Superman's legacy.
But I don't think there are any essential characters in the Legion. I would happily collect a Legion comic where the roster consisted of Catspaw, Chemical King, Color Kid, Computo (Danielle Foccart), Crystal Kid, Devlin O'Ryan, Aqualad, Quantum Queen, Dragonmage, Flederweb, Dream Boy, Gear, Kono, Magno, Monstress, Quislet, Shikari, Spider Girl, Thunder and Veilmist.
Y'know, Matthew E., you've just changed my mind. I was sort of leaning toward the notion that there are essential Legionairres, with Brainy and Wildfire being my top two choices (I think), but I agree that a Legion composed entirely of what many would probably consider to be less essential characters would be just as captivating and attention worthy as a more "star"-laden one. In fact, now you've got me wanting to see a lot more of the second tier characters, because the hypothetical line-up you contemplated really captures my fancy for some reason.
[ May 19, 2007, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Mediocre Boy ]
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: The simple fact is that ever since they decided to retcon Superboy out of the title, it's been suffering and struggling to find definition and purpose. That's not to say there haven't been some good stories since then, but it's clear that the title has had a serious "void" that it's trying to fill without him. So, if I were to choose any member as the essential Legionnaire, it would have to be Superboy.
Hey, Eryk Davis Ester, I didn't start reading the LSH regularly until just before the Great Darkness Saga, but wasn't Superboy forced to leave the Legion for a while sometime before then (something to do with the end result of a "Psycho War," I think)? If so, do you (or anybody else) know if sales suffered then? Just curious.
Posted by Tromium on :
quote:Originally posted by Mediocre Boy: Hey, Eryk Davis Ester, I didn't start reading the LSH regularly until just before the Great Darkness Saga, but wasn't Superboy forced to leave the Legion for a while sometime before then (something to do with the end result of a "Psycho War," I think)? If so, do you (or anybody else) know if sales suffered then? Just curious.
Superboy/LSH...12 months ending with #255: 171K......Levitz/Earthwar to Conway, before title change to LSH
LSH v.2.............12 months ending with #267: 111K......early Conway period
So, yeah, there was a steep and sudden drop (60K copies!) after SB left the title, but it was obviously still healthy enough to continue. The real and irreversible damage happened in the mid 1980s when SB left forever.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
One should keep in mind that sales of comics overall were declining during the 70s, but that 60K drop off seems way too steep to be explained by the general market.
But yeah, Superboy still continued to appear, if much less frequently, in the title up through the early Levitz era, so the basic connection with him was maintained. What hurt the Legion in the long-term more than anything was the complete severing of ties to anything "S"-related, at the very time at which DC had managed to restore Superman as its flagship title with the Byrne revamp.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Brainy has never been *replaced* in the Legion, by someone with his qualifications. We've never seen that. To me, it doesn't count that other members of the team have done something scientific. I'm talking about a true replacement. Sharn Nux comes to mind, but she was koo-koo/evil/wrong.
What if they introduced a Level 13 intellect, and had him or her work with the Legion on a mission? I believe that Brainy's role as the "essential" one would be in danger.
Brainy is an icon, though. If he was replaced, I think everyone would wonder what ever happened to him.
Also, in the toon, Brainy seems to have merged his typical role with Cham's. Proving that he is more essential than Cham.
Posted by wndola1 on :
I think if we look solely at the sales figs you end up with marvel disease where you have Spiderman or Wolverine on pretty much every cover...
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Yeah, but it's not *just* sales that are the issue. It's the lack of definition of the team. Pre-Crisis, the Legion were pretty easy to explain. They were a central part of the life history of DC's premier super-hero. Afterwards... well, they were this obscure sci-fi title off in its own little corner of the DCU, with little relevance to anything else, and not a particularly clear vision of what it was all about. To use the analogy I used in another thread, it's like eliminating Nightwing's career as Batman's partner.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: Yet Brainy was on the cover to #1. It's funny Waid is practically Superman/boys biggest fan yet I think he agrees Brainy is the cornerstone of the Legion. I'm sure I can find it in a interview somewhere.
Yeah, I remember that quote, but, after his latest run, I'm not really sure I trust Waid to know what the essence of the Legion is.
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). I guess my problem with this question, Lardy, is that I'm not sure how you are defining "essential." In your most recent post, you write,