So this has come up in various threads lately, so I thought it might be worthwhile to have a thread dedicated to it.
So, for various historical reasons, at the time the Legion was created, nearly all of the members were white. Today, that seems like a bit of a problem. So how do we handle it? It seems to me we've got three basic options, none of which is all that appealing.
1. You change the races of various Legionnaires, ala the threeboot Star Boy. But in a medium that's so heavily visual, that's kind of difficult to do, without changing part of what's appealing about particular characters. Plus, you open up a whole can of worms over whether or not a character's race should affect the character's personality traits.
2. You add in a bunch of new, non-white characters, ala the post-Zero Hour team. But the Legion is already pretty crowded with members, and adding in more than just a few token diversity members risks taking membership slots or at least panel time away from the "classic" members. Plus there's the fact that relatively few recently created Legionnaires have really gained the acceptance of the fanbase in the way earlier members did. And, unless we're talking about a rebooted continuity, if you suddenly sick a bunch of new non-white characters in the original Legion, you've still got the problem of why it was mostly white for all these years.
3. You come up with some excuse why the thirtieth century, or at least thirtieth century heroes, are mostly white. Maybe a virus wiped out most non-caucasians in the twenty-fifth century, or maybe the meta-gene occurs predominantly in white people. Or maybe all black people isolated themselves on an island or something, ala Tyroc's first appearance. But it's hard to do something like this without slipping into something borderline offensive and not in line with the optimistic future that we want the Legion to portray.
So, what do you guys think? Are there options I've missed?
[ April 29, 2007, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Skin color logically would seem to tend towards brown. I don't see too many black parents having lighter skinned children and mixing being what it is, there's seems only one direction for this all to go anyhow. I also seem to recall SF stories that blackskin were be less susceptible to radiation, so again it would seem, white skin is the out of order here.
We should probably face it. Legion is white because of sales, not good science fiction. Lack of pigment is the anomoly.
Not too much culture has been written in voice dielect for Legion. Cultural characterization has been slim. Basically they were white skinned, written white, even the green, orange and brown ones.
I suppose if skin color is to homogenize to brown, it's just as reasonable the culture will homogenize also, much moreso in the next 1000 years than in the previous, at least on Earth. But would it be recognizable to us, the readers? Doubtful.
If they rebooted and made it very clear that this was exactly the same LSH as in ADV 300 with the exception that not one of them were "white," I wouldn't bat an eyelash. It was their behavior and ideals that made their characters, not their skin color.
I identified most with KK because he was most like me, but it wasn't his skin. It was his lack of a "super" power that made me want that character to be given special status.
Posted by Superboy on :
As I mentioned earlier, I think Ferro Lad should be black, and it was direct bigotry(financially motivated) that lead to him being white. Plus, other than some hand shots, in the old continuity the only face we ever saw was Douglas Nolan's in SLOSH #300, and he certainly could have been black. In fact I think he was. But his hands have always been drawn white. FerroLad should be black, that's what Shooter wanted. Although he's dead in this version so........and Douglas went into an alternate timeline.
Also....I havw always been of the mind that the Legion should have a huge cast.
They are basically defending an entire galaxy(or is it a Universe)...
The Legion has always needed bases on more planets and more members.
I think that is something Waid worked on nicely.
Side Note: Where are all the Adult SuperHeroes in the 30th Century?
Other than that, while I am definitely in favor of bringing back the old Legion(especiall if it's from around the time of the great darkness saga), I have no problem with some of the characters from the newer Legions being brought in. It just so happens that most the ones that would likely be brought in, would fix some of the demographic issues...as well as fixing the problem of too many humanoids.
I mean let's start with FerroLad. Tyroc Jacques
Then from the Newer Legions...XS, Kid Quantum.
It's really not a problem now...
Then you bring in some of the non-humanoid forms...
Gates, Tellus, Quislet.
I don't think they should change the skin color of established characters unless there is a good reason for it(like in the case of FerroLad). Especially if it's the old Legion.
Introduce new ones rather than messing with someones favorite character.
The Legion also needs more Asians....that Demographic is way under-represented, especially in proportion to their actual population%.
It's also needs more characters with Red, Yellow and orange skin.
Just needs new stuff.
[ April 29, 2007, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Blacula on :
It's a conundrum that's for sure.
I'd take out option #3 straight off the bat - unless the idea is amazing then it's going to come off as either stupid or offensive.
I used to be a big proponent of option #1. I think I even wrote a letter to DC in the early reboot asking why Triad or Vi or someone hadn't been rebooted as an Asian character considering how few of them there've been on the team over the years. But after seeing white preboot Thom in JSA and black threeboot Thom in LSH I've started to rethink the idea. As EDE says, comics are a visual medium, and when you change a character's appearance that radically they start to seem more like a whole new character, rather than an alternate universe variant. And that can only be very frustrating for fans of the original character.
Maybe it's only because I became a hard-core Legion fan with the reboot (where option #2's method was used so prominently) but I think thats' the best method. XS never seemed out of place on the team to me and now I consider her a top-tier Legionnaire (one of those members where it seems 'wrong' when they're not there). Kid Quantums I and II and Dragonmage also seemed to fit quite easily onto the team to me and I liked seeing them mix it up with the other more classic characters. So that's probably the option I'd choose.
Posted by Charles Phipps on :
DC has so many Gorram Crises that frankly, I don't think anyone would notice if suddenly Starboy or the like were black in the "Old" Legion.
quote:Where are all the Adult SuperHeroes in the 30th Century?
I think it was established that superheroes didn't exist until RJ Brand resurrected them (with the exception of the Heroes of Lallor).
Posted by Ram Boy on :
I agree with SB about not changing the race of existing characters. That might come off as an awkward attempt to shoe-horn racial diversity into the Legion without really trying to hard. Also, you risk putting off fans who can be put off by a simple costume changes. Introduce new characters with new abilities and then make room at the table even if it means cutting back on the original casts lines (they'll survive). And more important, once they decide to add more races, they need to stick with it. I always felt Tyroc had the everything it took to be one of the GREATS if they'd had committed themselves to that end.
Posted by Charles Phipps on :
I disagree about Tyroc.
There's just something wrong about an angry black man 1000 years in the future.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Put me down as being against changing the race of established characters. I'd prefer to bring in new characters from varied cultures, and phase out old ones. I know some people would be upset about missing one of their favorites, but as long as the newbie was well written, and worthy, then it could be fine.
The Invisible Kid example is a tad extreme because Lyle died, but replacing him with Jacques was an excellent way of filling a void AND expanding diversity. Replacing Saturn Girl with Tellus was cool, because he was SO different from her, and she was elsewhere, fine.
I would approve of that being done with more of the classic Legionnaires. Which ones? Tough call. It'd have to make sense....
Another note... by the end of the preboot, the Legion's universe was very, very diverse. Dawnstar and Tyroc were no longer extreme stereotypes. In fact, they had very interesting new personas, like them or not.
The reboot is a whole other subject, but the core Legion looked pretty much the same as the preboot one. But it was a reboot. That's different.
Same with the threeboot.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
It could become clumsy to try and explain the cast whiteness with a backstory; it becomes contemporary social commentary, which I don't think has worked that well when it's been too direct.
Changing races is okay for a limited number of characters. Currently, we have Thom as the black guy, Vi and Val as the pretty-much Asian looking characters, depending how they're drawn. One blue, one green skin. We're missing Hispanics, all the Earth aboriginal peoples and non-humanoid aliens.
It would probably be easiest to add diversity gradually, with current members splitting off (like Sun Boy), retiring or, if they have to, dying. In the meantime, the regular supporting cast could become very diverse.
Apart from it not corresponding to my sense of a positive future in which all races are equal, I don't really think about the lack of diversity within a given story - maybe because I'm a white person. What I have noticed, in comics generally, is how WASPish the names are. Even the futuristic Legion names strike me as quite anglosaxon.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I'll take #2. We've seen changing the race of heroes is unpopular for the both races involved.
Many already critcize legacy characters who are black. Here is where I think Gear succeeded. A black android!!!
I think it's possible to have a very large cast of characters. Maybe not all members mind you. Supporting cast is fine with me.
Asians. Don't they make up like half the world? You are telling me in a thousand years there are going to be just two asians on the team.
I'd throw some old minority characters into the mix. XS, Dragonmage, Gear, Tryoc, Jacques, Quantum Kid. How cool would it be to see the PC Legion have the ZH young members join?
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
EDE, also to comment on one of your other posts from another thread.
Robert A. Heinlein used lots of minority characters in his sci-fi stories.
I know "Starship Troopers" main character is Filipino Juan "Johnnie" Rico.
This is in 1959. Pretty impressive and outside the box IMO. Heinlein was also alluding to race in many of his books via alien races, etc. A decade before marvel did something similiar with mutants in the X-Men.
His characters were far from stereotypes also. Taken from Wiki
"In The Star Beast, a harried African bureaucrat is sympathetically portrayed as the behind-the-scenes master of the world government's foreign policy, while several other (presumably white) officials are portrayed variously as misguided, foolish, or well-meaning but parochial and prejudiced."
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Damn, that quote about Star Beast reminds me of Colin Powell. Posted by Set on :
I'm partial to option 2. Add new characters.
The 'classic' Legionnaires are what they are, and, generally, for better or worse, that's white.
*Some* of them, I think are pretty easy to bend. Karate Kid becoming more Asian in features fits the character concept (since otherwise, he's just another of those 'American Ninja / Samurai / Kickboxer' movie cliches that were so painful), Cosmic Boy has always had a hispanic or even asian look to him, even with the blue eyes, Ferro Lad being black also fits the original concept.
Garth has always been Irish/Scottish in appearance, so it would be jarring for me if he changed. (And in my fanfic, I had Ranzz be a 1000 year old corruption of the 'Ryans.')
Turning Projectra into a snake was just cringe-worthy. I'm fine with snakes. Introduce a snake, just leave Jeckie the hell alone. She's been through enough!
Given that the majority of the world is brown (hispanic / middle eastern / east indian), black (african) or yellow (asian), white should be a serious minority by the 30th century. White skin has always been a minority in the past, and is only becoming more of one as time goes on. As the races mingle, I would expect the 30th century people to be uniformly darker skinned with brown eyes and black hair.
One thing I've always liked about the Legion is that even if it was a 'white boys club,' it included some of the only brunette characters in comics. A vast majority of super-heroes seem to be blondes, with the occasional redheads and black-haired heroes. Brown hair, like Colossal Boy and Triplicate Girl and Ultra Boy, was pretty rare.
I was a fan of Kid Quantum II, and wouldn't mind seeing XS show up again. The team doesn't have to have a sudden influx of 'minorities' to start moving in that direction. It doesn't have to be all at once, and there doesn't need to be some sort of 'formula' or 'quota' applied, where the writers sit down and say, 'we have 25 members, and 8 of them can be white, and the others have to be other colors...'
Heck with that noise. Artificially adding 'colored' characters according to a formula is as racist as not having any in the first place, IMO.
I'm fine with the majority of UP races being humanoid, as so many worlds seem to be descended from Earth in the first place. The problem becomes when the artists show hundreds of different aliens in the backgrounds, but none in the team. It begs the obvious question, 'Why don't the floating fish people have any heroes? Do they suck? What about the bird-lady pushing her egg? Are her people all cowards?'
With the arrival of truly alien supers in the Baxter era (the Gil'Dishpan supers, for instance), as well as Tellus, I was pretty impressed that they were 'getting there.' But them, crash, reboot, back to the 'homo sapiens only club.'
Posted by Vee on :
This thread got me thinking about how the Legion compares to other superteams when it comes to race/diveristy in the membership so I started a thread about that over on Gym'll's. Hope you guys pop over to Diversity on Superteams...How does the Legion stack up? and add your thoughts.
As to the topic here, I have to say that I don't care for changing an existing character in order to diversify though I have no objection to correcting the portrayal of one.
As an example I would point out that Val was half American & half Japanese from day one yet he was often drawn as fully caucasian. He really should be portrayed more accurately, not as one or the other. And someone else on this thread has already pointed out that Ferro Lad was intended to be black yet was always drawn with "white" hands.
What I would prefer is the direction that the writers took in the Legion's past. #2~Increase diversity by adding new members.
The addition of Blok, Quislet, Tellus, etc really helped make the Legion seem much more like a team composed of all types of sentinents from the universe. Other additions such as Jenni, Gates, KQ, Dragonmage, just added to that feel over the years. Just think what the Legion would have been like had Dave Cockrum's ideas for new members come to pass! Nightcrawler, Typhoon, etc would have really made this an incredibly diverse group.
Posted by Tromium on :
quote: Originally posted by Set: Garth has always been Irish/Scottish in appearance, so it would be jarring for me if he changed. (And in my fanfic, I had Ranzz be a 1000 year old corruption of the 'Ryans.')
Actually, Ranz/Rantz/Renz is a real-life name of Germanic origin, and Germans do indeed have their share of red-heads. Krin(ns)/Crin(ns) is Germanic as well. Ardeen/Arden is English. Except for a few obvious cases (Querl Dox, Reep Daggle), they didn't pull the names completely out of thin air.
quote: Originally posted by Set: As the races mingle, I would expect the 30th century people to be uniformly darker skinned with brown eyes and black hair.
Mother Nature is full of surprises. For example, my sister-in-law is of African, American Indian and European ancestry, but for reasons beyond her control she looks as "white" as most people who define themselves as white. For all we know, environmental conditions and natural genetic mutations may conspire to favor lighter skin in humans in the next thousand years. Maybe scientists were able to reverse global warming and solar radiation but went too far in the other direction.
I expect DC to do what they've done in other books, that is, leave the existing characters alone for the most part (without any in-continuity explanations why they're so white) and gradually introduce new ones reflecting greater diversity. In the meantime, they'll surround the main characters with a supporting cast of different races and species, as WaK have done. I'm willing to play along.
Posted by Tamper Lad on :
I also have a negative view of Tyroc. Why is there a character straight from 1970s urban America in the 31st century? Not only does he retain the attitude of the 'urban riot era' black youth, racial problems weren't solved in 1000 years.
In fact the solution to the black/white problem was reverse segregation and isolation. This made no sense in a larger universe of the UP that was reaching out to lots of alien worlds. Now the Tyroc background actually makes more sense in Waid's current imagining of the future.
In a way, I think Tyroc should be as offensive today the blackface caracitures of earlier times. A lot of those characters were whites paying homage to what they thought was black culture. Yeah it was pretty ignorant by modern standards and I think the 70s blaxploitation type characters in 'white media' should be judged in a similar manner.
I can only think that 20 years from now the current 'booty dis ho dat show me da bling' stuff will be in that same pile.
Diversity is a good thing but charcacters created purely for diversity tend to be constructs of the era in which they were created. The truly great diversity character should be as timeless as a great white character like Superman etc.
Posted by The Daxamite Kid on :
I would go with option #2. One problem I see with the Legion is that for a team that helps defend the galaxy (or at least the UP's section of it), there are not enough aliens on the team. Nearly everyone is humanoid (you know, the Star Trek syndrome). Yes, I do find that odd.
The classic members could be left alone, for the most part with perhaps some minor alterations (I did not know that about Ranzz and the Germanic connection. That's cool)
But some new members could help diversify the pot so to speak. Here's a perfect analogy: why can't this Legion be more like Carl Pott's Alien Legion in terms of team race makeup? That series (a classic) had some cool and unusual alien designs and I think having something of that nature would better reflect a galactic society/entity such as the United Planets.
For the only way I can think to justify the over-abundance of humanoids is to go back to the idea of Valor seeding the founding UP worlds with freed human slaves of the Dominators.
Posted by Vee on :
quote:Originally posted by The Daxamite Kid:
For the only way I can think to justify the over-abundance of humanoids is to go back to the idea of Valor seeding the founding UP worlds with freed human slaves of the Dominators.
Sometimes the easy answer works the best. Rather than having a world-seeding Valor, it could simply be that the UP is comprised of planets colonized by earthlings over the millenia. It would make sense that they would be "in the same neighborhood" of the universe and that they banded together over the years because of "outside threats such as the Dominators, Khunds, etc.
Posted by Charles Phipps on :
Tyroc's background is sort of like the Falcon's backstory as "Snap Wilson." It's embarrassing but the irony is that the character HIMSELF isn't bad. Just his story.
If I had to give Tyroc a backstory, I'd either make Tyroc's people their own form of Wakanda with a dislike of the UP but have their issues be unrelated to race and they're just black
Or I'd honestly make Tyroc a superhero from the 1970s.
;-)
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I don't see the need to invent an explanation for why the Legion consisted mostly Caucasians to begin with. The Legion is not (or was not, in the original continuity) a political entity, so it was not a consideration that they must have a representative from every culture.
In its early days, the Legion added whoever showed up and had the appropriate qualifications (original power, good character, etc.). It may have taken awhile for a teen hero group to become well known and taken seriously around the UP (or even around earth), and, by the time members of other races became interested in joining, the ranks were already pretty full.
I also never took it that the entire black population of earth sequestered itself on Marzal. I always assumed that only a small group became separatists. (After all, an island is a pretty small place to house an entire race!)
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
But don't you think it's at least a little weird that all of the qualified people who happened to show up in the early days were white? Excepting of course Cham, Brainy, and Shady. Especially since many of them of supposed to come from faraway planets.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I think option #2 is the only viable option. And I don't think that a new character being on the team while an older one isn't too terrible a crime that a writer could perpetrate. As long as that character isn't taking the 'slot' of one powers-wise, etc., like Shakiri did with Dawnstar.
But race is something that the Reboot actually had right above all other versions of the Legion. It was TMK's idea to have Kid Quantum retroactively a Legionnaire and I think it was a good one. XS, Kid Quantum II and others only showed how this could be done better.
Changing the race of a character is slightly offensive in my eyes, for both races. And it seems like a desperate marketing ploy or lazy writing.
I think a lot of current writers get the notion that when creating minority characters, the goal should be to make them a complicated, appealing character with staying power that doesn't adhere to the stereotypes perpetrated so often in the past (and I'm looking at you Tyroc*). So don't have an Asian character have sun powers because its been done so many times, but make them fresh and interesting. There's also the concern that the characters need to feel 'real', in that they truly exist as an actual 'character', have flaws and advance the stories, rather than being 'preachy editorial is going PC again'. In other words, I'd prefer Mr. Terrific to Judd Winnick giving me a 'very special story'.
I honestly think that at the end of the Reboot, there was no problem with diversity of race in the Legion, and I wish we could see that again. But generally the Legion has been more apt to give us diversity throughout its history, while some other comics have not.
*PS - I do think Tyroc works in the Legion, as long as that 'angry black man syndrome' is forgotten, his costume is updated and his powers are better defined.
Posted by Charles Phipps on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: But don't you think it's at least a little weird that all of the qualified people who happened to show up in the early days were white? Excepting of course Cham, Brainy, and Shady. Especially since many of them of supposed to come from faraway planets.
I always did like the view that some of the Legionaires were Asian and Hispanic, we just never noticed because the drawings don't bring it out very well ;-)
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: But don't you think it's at least a little weird that all of the qualified people who happened to show up in the early days were white? Excepting of course Cham, Brainy, and Shady. Especially since many of them of supposed to come from faraway planets.
OK, maybe a little weird, but not too inexplicable.
News travels in odd ways, even in the age of the Internet. Not every race on every world may have taken the Legion seriously, and even those who did may have lacked the desire to travel a great distance to join. (After all, there were other hero groups around, such as the Heroes of Lallor and the Wanderers.)
But, in point of fact: -- Brainy encountered the Legion at the Time Institute. -- Cham joined the Legion to win approval for his race, which was regarded with suspicion. -- Shady came to know the Legion after her world was taken over by five of their enemies.
Without those special circumstances, perhaps Coluans, Durlans, and Talokians would have ignored the Legion, too.
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Charles Phipps: If I had to give Tyroc a backstory, I'd either make Tyroc's people their own form of Wakanda with a dislike of the UP but have their issues be unrelated to race and they're just black
It's a nice idea, but fandom would turn their race into an issue eventually.
I say just retcon the Jacques character with Tyroc's powers and be done with it.
Posted by Set on :
I do prefer if race has nothing to do with powers, so Tyroc, Invisible Jacques, Kid Quantum, etc. were at least a breath of fresh air, in that they didn't have anything to do with jungles, animal-powers or voodoo. Sonic powers, invisibility and time manipulation, all neat powers, and not associated with 'color.'
Karate Kid, the half-asian martial artist, is a bit stereotyped, but doesn't seem caricaturized about it.
Dawnstar, on the other hand, ugh. Me heap good tracker, kemo sabe, watch me press my head to the ground to tell you how many horsemen are coming! (Not that Marvel was any better. Thunderbird, Red Wolf, Shaman, etc. I can't tell whether they are trying to make deliberately offensive caricatures of Native Americans, or just trying to offer the Village People some alternative band-members...)
Posted by Lucifer07 on :
I have to agree with Blockade Boy.The reason was Sales and the attitude of that time. It was the late fifties early sixties when the legion was born, I doubt anyone was thinking we should add a minority hero to the group.(The Shooter/Ferro lad info was a surprise to me I'm sad it never got to see the light of day.) So I would never expect the founders or anyone from the Silver age to be black.
But in order to attract new readers the legion should be a diverse book. Growing up in the 70's I had to justify to my father why I was spending my allowance on comics that did not have any blacks in it. My excuse ( I was ten at the time) was I enjoyed the stories, but you would be surprised how many of my friends prefered Marvel over DC becasue blacks were in the books more.
I agree the Rebooot was as good example of diversity ( Snekie being the worst example) but if the PTB really want to attract new readers there are a lot of ways to do it And lets start with no more Recons, reboots, Crisises, Hypertime, Superboy prime punches, and just get back to great story telling.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: I do prefer if race has nothing to do with powers, so Tyroc, Invisible Jacques, Kid Quantum, etc. were at least a breath of fresh air, in that they didn't have anything to do with jungles, animal-powers or voodoo. Sonic powers, invisibility and time manipulation, all neat powers, and not associated with 'color.'
Actually, Jacques is kind of on the borderline, since it's kind of hard not to take his name as reference to Ellison's The Invisible Man, a novel about black people being "invisible" in our society. But generally I agree with your point.
Posted by The Daxamite Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Vee: Sometimes the easy answer works the best. Rather than having a world-seeding Valor, it could simply be that the UP is comprised of planets colonized by earthlings over the millenia. It would make sense that they would be "in the same neighborhood" of the universe and that they banded together over the years because of "outside threats such as the Dominators, Khunds, etc.
I could accept that scenario to a degree but then evolution would have to jumpstart into high gear to explain how those worlds' populations got their eventual natural powers.
Still considering that, I would think the UP would be expanding their borders and initating contact with other alien civilizations. Maybe I have the wrong idea but I do see the UP as analogous to ST's Federation. Thus, I still say more alien-type beings would better reflect the Legion and the time and society they live in.
Is Karate Kid half-Asian? If he is, then that is real sterotyping now. I remember one of George Takei's lines from Futurama in which he said,(paraphrase) "Just because I'm Asian, you automatically assume that I know karate."
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
quote:Originally posted by Charles Phipps: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: [qb]I always did like the view that some of the Legionaires were Asian and Hispanic, we just never noticed because the drawings don't bring it out very well ;-)
Well since hispanics are not a race any member of the legion could've been hispanic. Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
quote:Originally posted by The Daxamite Kid: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Vee: [qb]Is Karate Kid half-Asian? If he is, then that is real sterotyping now. I remember one of George Takei's lines from Futurama in which he said,(paraphrase) "Just because I'm Asian, you automatically assume that I know karate."
Well in the case of Karate Kid I think it's better to make him asian. Mostly cause the codename already is asian (karate).
The reason I think it's ok is because the oppossite mainly in pulp heroes. the master of kungfu was always a blonde hair/blue eyed guy. The master of the jungle tarzan? white guy. Inca master? Blond european that learned all the secrets from a shaman. You get the idea.
Karate is a asian term. I rather have an asian be the karate kid rather than another example of the white man mastering another culture.
If it was the Samurai Kid or Sumo Lad I would prefer a japanese character. Lets avoid characters with these codenames in the future. Posted by Set on :
quote: Is Karate Kid half-Asian? If he is, then that is real sterotyping now. I remember one of George Takei's lines from Futurama in which he said,(paraphrase) "Just because I'm Asian, you automatically assume that I know karate."
And yet I'd rather see him half-Japanese than have it be something like 'The Last Samurai' with Big Nose Cruise. Or any of those other appalling movies about white people becoming the best kickboxer / ninja / whatever and kicking as on all those asian losers who've forgotten their cultural heritage. 'Cause that got old back in the '70s.
If somebody is going to be a Cherokee shaman, tapping the power of the Raven Mocker, I'd rather it be someone with Cherokee heritage (or, paradoxically, a *total* alien, like Tellus, or something, to completely throw the stereotype on its ear!), rather than have native american cultural traditions embodied in some Great White Hope.
In fact, I'm loving the alien angle. The reactions from the various human practitioners of whatever culture it is aping could be amusing.
"Uh, mister tentacly squid / antelope / pineapple thing? I get that you're an expert on qabala and memorized the Torah and everything, but you *do* realize that you can't actually be Jewish, no matter how orthodox you act? Those dangly head tentacles? They're not scalplocks... You're not fooling anyone, sir."
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Making Val half-Japanese also kind of helps to explain why he'd name himself Karate Kid, when he supposedly is a master of all known forms of combat.
But, yeah, while it's bad to assume all Asians know Karate, if you've got a character whose schtick is martial arts, I'd rather they be Asian than white.
I'd also like to see Asian characters from places other than East Asia, however. Asia's a really big continent, there's a whole lot more to it than China and Japan, but so often it seems like those are all we get to see in comics. A character from Turkmenestan or somewhere would be really cool.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Set, you've often commented that you find Dawnstar, the Amerind tracker, to be an offensive stereotype. But I've always thought of her as being someone who has taken skills from her heritage to the stars, into the future. Her costume is meant to honor her culture. She does not speak with an embarrassing Hollywood accent. So my question is, where is the line between stereotyping and homeage?
(Remember, I'm a Dawnstar fan. I think her powers are fascinating. I think she's beautiful. I think her sort of aloof personality was a nice change from all the other girl Legionnaires at the time. I like what we've seen of Starhaven. I like her dilemma with the body-less Wildfire.)
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
EDE, I think in the Legion broad strokes are needed. Just refer to them as Asian maybe? This is where Jacques may have run into trouble. He could've just been a black new Legionnaire. France didn't need to be mentioned at all and thus we could've avoided all the bad french.
In other words no specific countries. They are from Earth. Maybe a region. Middle Eastern Legion member rather than an Iraqi Legion member. Even then I don't think they should delve into where they are from. Just can lead to problems. Maybe their names will indicate it. Teleportation Lad aka Amir Ibn Mohammed. He may or may not be from the middle east but we get the idea.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Jacques was from the Ivory Coast rather than France, actually. I think the idea that that particular region of the world maintained its French language/identity was kind of cool touch, even if I don't think the way it was used was all that great. So I guess I kind of like finding out what's happened in particular regions of the world in the 30th century (like the Saharan desert being turned into fertile farmland), and so having characters specifically from those regions kind of facilitates that. Of course, there really aren't particular countries the way we know them today in the Legion's time, but I don't mind people still having a sense of cultural identity.
Posted by Blacula on :
Speaking of race and the Legion - does anyone think that they might've changed Bouncing Boy's race in the cartoon?
He's coloured an almost greyish colour - a noticeable difference to the pinkish hue of the other Caucasian Legionnaires. In comics "grey" characters are usually meant to represent people of East Indian or Hispanic background - I wonder if the writers have purposely done this to inject some racial diversity into the otherwise all-white cast of the toon?
If they have done so, I've gotta say I don't mind it - Chuck could very easily have been from a Hispanic/Latino background in the comics and so to emphasise such in the cartoon is an example of a good way of changing a character's race without changing their visual too drastically. (Unlike threeboot Star Boy.)
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Outdoor Miner: I say just retcon the Jacques character with Tyroc's powers and be done with it. [/QB]
I think that this would be a terrible idea. For one thing, there isn't enough diversity in the Legion as it is. And for another, they were very distinct characters in terms of temperment and origin. Accordingly, the suggestion is even somewhat offensive because it essentially says, "Look, all black people are the same and therefore interchangable," when they definitely are not.
Not convinced? Then think about this: how would you feel if someone said: just retcon the Phantom Girl character with the Triplicate Girl's powers and be done with it?
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Sketch Lad: Set, you've often commented that you find Dawnstar, the Amerind tracker, to be an offensive stereotype. But I've always thought of her as being someone who has taken skills from her heritage to the stars, into the future. Her costume is meant to honor her culture. She does not speak with an embarrassing Hollywood accent. So my question is, where is the line between stereotyping and homeage?
(Remember, I'm a Dawnstar fan. I think her powers are fascinating. I think she's beautiful. I think her sort of aloof personality was a nice change from all the other girl Legionnaires at the time. I like what we've seen of Starhaven. I like her dilemma with the body-less Wildfire.)
Right on, Sketch Lad! I'm a Cree man, and I agree with everything you said. Mind you, that's not to say that others are wrong to feel otherwise; I just happen not to see things the same way.
Posted by Charles Phipps on :
I imagined today an Affirmative Action episode of the animated cartoon.
Lightning Lad: Okay, whose autobotic American?
*Brainiac raises his hand*
Lightning Lad: Okay, we need an alien. Superman qualifies but barely.
Superman: I agree. I don't want to be the token alien.
Lightning Lad: Okay, anyone Flamboyant?
*Color Kid raises his hand, Porcupine Pete coughs and raises his hand*
Lightning Lad: I don't see your hand up Elemental Lad, you're not helping anyone by being in denial.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Sketch Lad: Set, you've often commented that you find Dawnstar, the Amerind tracker, to be an offensive stereotype. But I've always thought of her as being someone who has taken skills from her heritage to the stars, into the future. Her costume is meant to honor her culture. She does not speak with an embarrassing Hollywood accent.
At this point, you've lost me. Accent? Was she in a previous cartoon that I've missed?
I think Jacques was the only one actually lettered in the comic as having an accent, and, given that the entire team speaks something other than English as their native language, it was just a laughable act of stupidity. It's not like Garth has a thick Winathian brogue, or Rokk has a gravely Braalian accent, or Jo belts out the Rimborian gutter-speak, after all!
quote: So my question is, where is the line between stereotyping and homeage?
Somewhere farther away from a woman who wears buckskins with the dangly fringes and acts like the 'noble savage.'
Like darn near every other native american portrayal in the comic books, she's defined by her culture. As pointed out upthread, Kid Quantum II is presumably of African descent (by way of Xanthu), but she's not dressed up like a Moari, and her powers don't involve anything stereotypical like athleticism or chucking spears. How is Dawnstar being a tracker, like the Legion's own Tonto, any less a stereotype?
Even her name, 'Dawnstar.' Yeah, *some* native americans still use that sort of name, but most have first and last names these days, and the first name is more likely to be John or Sarah than Runningdeer or Greatfire. She could even have an actual native american name, like Arawanah (a very pretty sounding name from someone I went to school with), and not a couple english words slammed together like Dawnstar. How hard would it have been to check a phone book and find a native name, instead of stringing together english words to sound vaguely 'indian?'
Checking stuff like that is even easier today. I can do a search and click a link, and BAM, there's the tribal council of the Cherokee nation, the one tribe that actually has their own alphabet and would be most likely to use their own native words as names. John, Don, Nick, Mary. The usual suspects. A notable lack of Greybirds and Mistwolves.
'Dawnstar' might even make sense, for a spacefaring people deliberately trying to reach back to the ways of the past, assuming that they've completely forgotten their native language.
But Mistwolf? Greybird? How many of these sorts of critters do you tend to run into in deep space? Wouldn't Sunjumper or Nighteyes be more appropriate, things that refer to the space they spend their lives flying around in?
Would you name your kid after something from the distant past that you've never seen and never will? "Yes, this is my son, GreyAnkylosaur, and his sister, RunningDeinonychus. What? No, no reason. I just wanted a traditional sounding name, so I picked earth animals out of a book."
To me, she's as cliched as El Dorado, from the Super Friends.
quote: (Remember, I'm a Dawnstar fan. I think her powers are fascinating.
I'm still confused about her powers. She's got a tracking sense. She's got white feathery wings that let her fly at faster-than-light speeds in space. She's got some sort of environmental adaptation that also allows her to survive in space. And I've fairly recently read that she's invulnerable, which is news to me (and isn't mentioned in her Wiki bio), but makes sense, since she couldn't be flying at lightspeed without it anyway (without pulling a Lazon and turning into energy, or pulling a Flash and surrounding herself with a protective field of 'speed-force').
When all these exact same powers were combined to make the character of Shikari, they flowed together. But on Dawnstar, it felt like, 'oh yeah, and she can do this, too!'
quote: I think she's beautiful.
No argument there. She and Shady are my two favorite Legion women for sheer graceful beauty!
quote: I think her sort of aloof personality was a nice change from all the other girl Legionnaires at the time.
I like that she was serious, even, at times, a bit ruthless, but the 'aloof' thing came off as the standard native american stereotype.
I grew up shuttled between reservations (Arizona and Oklahoma, mostly), and so I've always been annoyed by white writers portraying native americans as all in touch with the land and aloof and whatnot, when most of my friends were laughing pranksters and rabble-rousers and all-around fun people who liked to dance and party. Some cared about their heritage, and we'd go to the festivals, others were more interested in being artists or whatever.
Dawnstar might stand off, arms folded, looking vaguely put out at (or confused by) a social occasion, but that's a freaky Hollywood stereotype that has nothing to do with the sort of people I grew up around. The whole 'confused savage stands apart' thing just didn't apply to them.
quote: I like what we've seen of Starhaven. I like her dilemma with the body-less Wildfire.)
I didn't see much of the Starhaven stuff. I remember when she was introduced, she was supposed to be a mutant, and her powers unique, but then later her whole family (and possibly all of Starhaven, I wasn't clear on that) seemed to have wings and be able to travel through space, so I lost track of which powers were special and which ones were racial / gene-mod.
I did love her relationship with Wildfire, 'though. It was very Beauty and the Beast. Apart from her appearance, the best thing about her.
Up until Dawnstars people turned out to be into arranged marriages and the whole 'primitive culture' stereotype reared it's ugly head again.
Note, that as someone growing up immersed in that sort of thing, I was initially *stoked* to see a native american superhero. But I got annoyed every time she opened her mouth, since she didn't sound right. She sounded like she was a diversity token, and not an actual character. Even worse, she was a *generic* 'indian,' of no specific tribe, meaning that any cultural details about her were just completely pulled out of someone's butt.
The more we learned about Dawnstar, the more it felt to me that Grell and Levitz had never even met a native american. [Bear in mind, this is all just my opinion. For all I know Grell & Levitz could *be* native american, in which case, gosh, won't I look silly! It's just my impression.]
[ May 01, 2007, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Set ]
Posted by Harbinger on :
The group definitely needs more diversity - we're all agreed on that! I tend to agree with the previous posters who said the reboot had the best approach to it, introducing a morew diverse cast - gates, Monstress, Kid Quantim, XS etc. Lets hope that the next writer takes this onboard and starts introducing some fascinatingly diverse characters. If they want to bring back Dawnstar at least lets hope they're clear on the culture she's from and let the reader know why she is apparently a stereotype - surely there's nothing wrong with a planet being settled by a spexcific race or political movement or religious body who want to keep their traditions alive so become 'set in their ways' is there? There's enough people here in the 21st century who don't want their culture to be eroded by rampant homogenisation that it's totally understandable that in the future people will be the same - and have the space to do it!
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
quote:Originally posted by Harbinger: There's enough people here in the 21st century who don't want their culture to be eroded by rampant homogenisation that it's totally understandable that in the future people will be the same - and have the space to do it!
Yeah that's a new slippery slope these days. With the introduction of things like Euro many are fighting to keep their distinct cultures.
IMO, in the Legion that should be ignored. Homogensation on Earth is ok by me in DC 31st century. Other planets? No. It would be fun to see an alien member have an accent much like Jacques did. As I said before I think the Legion should avoid having their earth members be from a specific place. Keep that vague. Focus on the alien cultures more IMO. Sure have more diversity but lets not say if they are from the Ivory Coast, South Africa, Austrailia, etc.
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:It would be fun to see an alien member have an accent much like Jacques did.
I believe you are referring to Ze Tongue.
Posted by EmeraldEmpress on :
And what about Computo and Catspaw? I like those female afroamerican legionnaires, but why the writers has to kill the youngs Val, Jeckie and Reep to introducing with Drangonmage... And I don't like the current Star Boy, I think his name is James Culumm not Thom Kallor. And for another part if Bart Allen is the current Flash, his cousin Jenni must exist in some place. The perfect afroamericans legionnaires are :
Ferro Lad Tyroc Invisible Kid II (But with anothers powers) Computo Catspaw XS And for Kid Quantum, James is good for me. Jazmin never like me, because I'm a big fan of the original platinum blonde Quantum Queen.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
EE, good points about Computo and Catspaw. With Timberwolf around not sure how well Catspaw fits in but Computo certainly.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Set, Thank you for the response. I'll need to get back to this thread to give further, more in-depth discussion.
But, I do want to mention that I said that Dawnstar did NOT speak with a lame Hollywood Indian accent. No "heap big flying wagon" speak. That's a good thing....
Posted by The Daxamite Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: Karate is a asian term. I rather have an asian be the karate kid rather than another example of the white man mastering another culture.
That's a good point along with what Set and EDE mentioned. For some reason, it just never occurred to me that Val could be Asian or half-Asian. I have no problem with that, but as someone mentioned before, the art has been quite vague in racial depictions over the years.
As for any regional homes on Earth, I would find it acceptable in using just broad locations. For instance, so-and-so is from North America or she is from Australia. You might could use countries but nothing more specific than that I would think.
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Mediocre Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Outdoor Miner: I say just retcon the Jacques character with Tyroc's powers and be done with it.
I think that this would be a terrible idea. For one thing, there isn't enough diversity in the Legion as it is. And for another, they were very distinct characters in terms of temperment and origin. Accordingly, the suggestion is even somewhat offensive because it essentially says, "Look, all black people are the same and therefore interchangable," when they definitely are not.
Not convinced? Then think about this: how would you feel if someone said: just retcon the Phantom Girl character with the Triplicate Girl's powers and be done with it?[/QB]
It would fail to bother me.
And my suggestion isn't as bigoted as you would like to make it out to be. Lyle and Jacques both have a fanbase, and it would be a shame to lose one of them because of overlapping powers. Tyroc, meanwhile, is an embarrasment as a character, but he has an intersting power set.
But if it makes you happy, substitute Tellus or any of the other not-shown characters for Tyroc in my statement above.
Posted by duck458 on :
I think that in the past, one of the problems writers of LSH have had when they have tried to bring racial diversify to the cast has been that those writers don’t have an intimate or (as Set and others have pointed out) in some cases even a passing knowledge of the people they are trying to write about. I personally got so tired of the ‘angry black man who lives in the ghetto so he can teach his people’ character in comics that it was not funny. But I also came to realize that another problem that writers have in portraying characters of a race different than their own is that this is a commercial product after all. So they dumb down the characterizations to stereotypes in hopes of appealing to what they perceive to be the broadest audience. I once heard that sci-fi readers don’t buy books with a black character on the cover but will buy books in droves if there is some weird looking alien creature on the cover. So if that’s the case, real subtle characterization may not be commercially viable in the minds of comic book publishers. Name a character Wyatt Wingfoot and right off the bat just about everybody knows that he is American Indian. Name a character Pie Face and well you get the picture. I’m not saying that its right, I’m just saying. I thought that Icon was a fascinating premise for a black superhero, but whatever happened to that book? Do any of you know about Icon at all? Will DC ever bring him back, or Rocket or any of the Milestone characters?
It may have only been since Spawn first came out that every new black superhero wasn’t some cliché. Heck, look at how cliché most of the female characters in LSH are. My answer to the question of diversity would be a writer, artist and editor’s nightmare. I say get rid of the membership limit, then you can add all kinds of new members (powered only please, none of this hippy/commune/youth movement stuff) but focus on a few characters’ adventures per story arc. That way you can spread the LSH adventures all over the universe at once and you can tell limitless types of stories, focusing on a wider variety of characters and sub-units within the team structure (and each sub-unit can star Superman and/or Wolverine). You could throw so much information at the fandom that they would all be giddy from continuity overload. Not just in the name of diversity but in the name of the legion in the Legion of Super Heroes.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
quote:Originally posted by EmeraldEmpress: And what about Computo and Catspaw? I like those female afroamerican legionnaires.
No, really -- Catspaw was afro-american? Was that definitely established? I thought her coloring was just due to being catlike.
Posted by Set on :
quote: But, I do want to mention that I said that Dawnstar did NOT speak with a lame Hollywood Indian accent. No "heap big flying wagon" speak. That's a good thing....
As I mentioned, I'm not sure if she's ever had a voice-actor, so of course she doesn't have an accent. It's not really possible.
The fact that they didn't mess up the writing to make it look like she had an accent on the page just makes her like Chameleon Boy or Shadow Lass, who *definitely* don't speak Interlac as their native tongue, and also don't have some sort of 'accent' written into their word-balloons.
Jacques is the only one who had to suffer that sort of silliness, a lame attempt to 'write' an accent. As a result, *Khunds* speak better Interlac than Jacques, and they made the dim bulb President? Yeesh.
Posted by Harbinger on :
Maybe we'll find out that on other planets there are other groups that come under the Legion umbrella (Lallor and Xanthu for starters and who know where else) that have a far more diverse make up - as for the lack of flight rings (the limiting factor to being on the core team) how about a Gil'dishpan member or two, isn't their tech supposed to be really advanced? Zymyr was able to selectively teleport large groups, and even a planet!
And if memory serves me right wasn't there a large group of zippy looking kids at the end of issue 12 waiting for Lemnos' Army? Whatever happened to them? surely at least one of these little groups thougfht it was a good idea to stick together and go off and spread the Legion word somewhere other than Earth?
I'm always a bit wary of reading accents - some work and some don't. Jacques always annoyed me as he used only 'simple' french, if he'd occassionally tried to talk a complete sentence in French it might have struck me as more realistic - even if it was only when he spoke with his sister.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Harbinger, Lemnos' zippy kids joined Sun Boy. Unless you mean other ones.
Yeah the only accent I was is an alien accent. A *kilk* in between sentences. Or the alien version of Mein Gott! Bozshe Moi! Sacre Bleu!
Maybe Gates throws in a *blarke*! Or maybe instead of having $&*! then can do some Interlac lettering. So we us Interlac nerds can decipher at home. Something like good grief! Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: So this has come up in various threads lately, so I thought it might be worthwhile to have a thread dedicated to it.
So, for various historical reasons, at the time the Legion was created, nearly all of the members were white. Today, that seems like a bit of a problem. So how do we handle it? It seems to me we've got three basic options, none of which is all that appealing.
1. You change the races of various Legionnaires, ala the threeboot Star Boy. But in a medium that's so heavily visual, that's kind of difficult to do, without changing part of what's appealing about particular characters. Plus, you open up a whole can of worms over whether or not a character's race should affect the character's personality traits.
2. You add in a bunch of new, non-white characters, ala the post-Zero Hour team. But the Legion is already pretty crowded with members, and adding in more than just a few token diversity members risks taking membership slots or at least panel time away from the "classic" members. Plus there's the fact that relatively few recently created Legionnaires have really gained the acceptance of the fanbase in the way earlier members did. And, unless we're talking about a rebooted continuity, if you suddenly sick a bunch of new non-white characters in the original Legion, you've still got the problem of why it was mostly white for all these years.
3. You come up with some excuse why the thirtieth century, or at least thirtieth century heroes, are mostly white. Maybe a virus wiped out most non-caucasians in the twenty-fifth century, or maybe the meta-gene occurs predominantly in white people. Or maybe all black people isolated themselves on an island or something, ala Tyroc's first appearance. But it's hard to do something like this without slipping into something borderline offensive and not in line with the optimistic future that we want the Legion to portray.
So, what do you guys think? Are there options I've missed?
to get back to EDE's original point, I would humbly suggest:
4. A (real, not fan-club) Legion so large we don't know the extemt of membership. Classic members, people like XS and Kid Quantum (either or both), alien members, and non-white members are all there. Obviously, this would be a challenge to coordinate, but no one's favorites would be excluded, even if they get rare panel-time.
Before this is dismissed out of hand (and I fully realize there would be good arguments to do so), I remind people of the early days of the All-Star Squadron (before Roy Thomas burned out), where we had the "classics" (the JSA membership) serving as a counterbalance to a core group of lesser-remembered heroes, who in turn were part of a literal cast of dozens.
This would/could insolate the LSH from further 'boots: just shift the focus of your core group.
A starting lineup could include three to five "classics" (traditionally 2/3 white 1/3 alien), two or three from the 70s/80s teams (generally non-white or non-human), a couple 90s/early 00s (generally black), Threeboot Val, and maybe one or two new ones as well.
Posted by Candle on :
This is interesting.
One solution would be to bring diversity by ethnicizing MORE of the characters, rather then making their backgrounds more general (which also = more generic.) Remember when Lu was drawn with the larger lips and the more slanted eyes? Definitely Slavic and beautiful and very 'in', today. Tinya's eyes, like other Legionnaires', have changed over the years. Val was last shown as mixed Asian/Caucasian..
Coloring, as a whole is extremely complex and rather unpredictable, too.
Colonies would most definitely retain their ethnic qualities, depending on how diverse the mix was to begin with. Some groupings might even create a future group that looks humanoid rather than human, too.
So, I'd create ethnic diversity in the original Legionnaires. Then, I'd add humanoid diversity with a few new, well thought out members. Some classically 'from Earth looking', but more humoid looking, strange mixes of human features.
I'd follow with more and more active members of truly alien races.
One of the problems with 'aliens' is that the basis of understanding each other might be missing for a 'team' effort.
Just drawing beings that look different doesn't mean that they're alien.
One of Star Trek's problems was a small special effects budget. It was easier to make humanoid aliens than try to make believable aliens, although ST had some spectacular successes in that area, from time to time. A drawing medium, like comics can create whatever they want, visually. It's making the characters alien that's hared, especially if they're not going to come across as silly. Especially where accents are concerned.
And accents are easy in TV or movies, unlike special effects.
Does anyone here notice some of the posts by non-native English speakers? We have a number of them. I find them very charming. But, it's hard to copy.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
The Legion is 1000 years in the future, that's approximately 50 generations.
Everyone speaks Interlac.
Given those two facts, it is unlikely that there will be the same 'racial' or dialect mix amongst Earthlings that there is now. As broadcasted media becomes more homgenised, so will accents to the extent that interlac will sound pretty much the same wherever on Earth you are from.
Equally with 50 generations of travel and inter-marriage, it is unlikely that the current racial boundaries will be retained. Until 20 years ago inter-marriage was unthinkable just about anywhere. Now, here in the UK, it is estimated that within 5 years 45-50% of all Afro-Carribeans will be marrying outside their 'race'. This is a trend that will continue and escalate. In 1000 years the world will be populated by people who pretty much all have the coloring of Beyonce Knowles.
Where this racial diffusion will not occur is on isolated colonies where a founding group breed without inter-breeding with others from Earth. So Starhaven's 'Amerind' people would stay as their founders looked. Similarly if Braal say was colonised by Italy before the Italians were subsumed into a homogenous Earth population, then the natives of Braal would have predominantly black hair and fair(ish) skin.
Based on what is likely to happen on Earth, Jacques Foccart is probably as anachronistic as the first umpteen Legionnaires being 'white'. But let's be honest, even today no publisher in the US could posit a situation where white America has been absorbed into "Coffee Colored People By the Score" any more than their 1950s predecessors could have shown black heroes or athiest heroes.
So the whole damn debate is pointless.
Posted by future king on :
I agree with a lot of what you said SA Lad. I also think that in 1000 years all Earthlings will indeed have the same skin tone. It's inevitable, and would be a logical evolution.
I remember back when the 3boot Legion debuted I was a bit surprised (not shocked) to see Star Boy as a black character. I thought to myself " hmm, that's different! Ok, why not?". Never once did it cross my mind that the creators were maybe trying to satisfy some color status quo or something. If they had they would certainly have made either Invisible Kid II and/or Quantum Kid II a part of the new incarnation.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)