Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
So this has come up in various threads lately, so I thought it might be worthwhile to have a thread dedicated to it.
So, for various historical reasons, at the time the Legion was created, nearly all of the members were white. Today, that seems like a bit of a problem. So how do we handle it? It seems to me we've got three basic options, none of which is all that appealing.
1. You change the races of various Legionnaires, ala the threeboot Star Boy. But in a medium that's so heavily visual, that's kind of difficult to do, without changing part of what's appealing about particular characters. Plus, you open up a whole can of worms over whether or not a character's race should affect the character's personality traits.
2. You add in a bunch of new, non-white characters, ala the post-Zero Hour team. But the Legion is already pretty crowded with members, and adding in more than just a few token diversity members risks taking membership slots or at least panel time away from the "classic" members. Plus there's the fact that relatively few recently created Legionnaires have really gained the acceptance of the fanbase in the way earlier members did. And, unless we're talking about a rebooted continuity, if you suddenly sick a bunch of new non-white characters in the original Legion, you've still got the problem of why it was mostly white for all these years.
3. You come up with some excuse why the thirtieth century, or at least thirtieth century heroes, are mostly white. Maybe a virus wiped out most non-caucasians in the twenty-fifth century, or maybe the meta-gene occurs predominantly in white people. Or maybe all black people isolated themselves on an island or something, ala Tyroc's first appearance. But it's hard to do something like this without slipping into something borderline offensive and not in line with the optimistic future that we want the Legion to portray.
So, what do you guys think? Are there options I've missed?
[ April 29, 2007, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Skin color logically would seem to tend towards brown. I don't see too many black parents having lighter skinned children and mixing being what it is, there's seems only one direction for this all to go anyhow. I also seem to recall SF stories that blackskin were be less susceptible to radiation, so again it would seem, white skin is the out of order here.
We should probably face it. Legion is white because of sales, not good science fiction. Lack of pigment is the anomoly.
Not too much culture has been written in voice dielect for Legion. Cultural characterization has been slim. Basically they were white skinned, written white, even the green, orange and brown ones.
I suppose if skin color is to homogenize to brown, it's just as reasonable the culture will homogenize also, much moreso in the next 1000 years than in the previous, at least on Earth. But would it be recognizable to us, the readers? Doubtful.
If they rebooted and made it very clear that this was exactly the same LSH as in ADV 300 with the exception that not one of them were "white," I wouldn't bat an eyelash. It was their behavior and ideals that made their characters, not their skin color.
I identified most with KK because he was most like me, but it wasn't his skin. It was his lack of a "super" power that made me want that character to be given special status.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
As I mentioned earlier, I think Ferro Lad should be black, and it was direct bigotry(financially motivated) that lead to him being white. Plus, other than some hand shots, in the old continuity the only face we ever saw was Douglas Nolan's in SLOSH #300, and he certainly could have been black. In fact I think he was. But his hands have always been drawn white. FerroLad should be black, that's what Shooter wanted. Although he's dead in this version so........and Douglas went into an alternate timeline.
Also....I havw always been of the mind that the Legion should have a huge cast.
They are basically defending an entire galaxy(or is it a Universe)...
The Legion has always needed bases on more planets and more members.
I think that is something Waid worked on nicely.
Side Note: Where are all the Adult SuperHeroes in the 30th Century?
Other than that, while I am definitely in favor of bringing back the old Legion(especiall if it's from around the time of the great darkness saga), I have no problem with some of the characters from the newer Legions being brought in. It just so happens that most the ones that would likely be brought in, would fix some of the demographic issues...as well as fixing the problem of too many humanoids.
I mean let's start with FerroLad. Tyroc Jacques
Then from the Newer Legions...XS, Kid Quantum.
It's really not a problem now...
Then you bring in some of the non-humanoid forms...
Gates, Tellus, Quislet.
I don't think they should change the skin color of established characters unless there is a good reason for it(like in the case of FerroLad). Especially if it's the old Legion.
Introduce new ones rather than messing with someones favorite character.
The Legion also needs more Asians....that Demographic is way under-represented, especially in proportion to their actual population%.
It's also needs more characters with Red, Yellow and orange skin.
Just needs new stuff.
[ April 29, 2007, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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I'd take out option #3 straight off the bat - unless the idea is amazing then it's going to come off as either stupid or offensive.
I used to be a big proponent of option #1. I think I even wrote a letter to DC in the early reboot asking why Triad or Vi or someone hadn't been rebooted as an Asian character considering how few of them there've been on the team over the years. But after seeing white preboot Thom in JSA and black threeboot Thom in LSH I've started to rethink the idea. As EDE says, comics are a visual medium, and when you change a character's appearance that radically they start to seem more like a whole new character, rather than an alternate universe variant. And that can only be very frustrating for fans of the original character.
Maybe it's only because I became a hard-core Legion fan with the reboot (where option #2's method was used so prominently) but I think thats' the best method. XS never seemed out of place on the team to me and now I consider her a top-tier Legionnaire (one of those members where it seems 'wrong' when they're not there). Kid Quantums I and II and Dragonmage also seemed to fit quite easily onto the team to me and I liked seeing them mix it up with the other more classic characters. So that's probably the option I'd choose.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I agree with SB about not changing the race of existing characters. That might come off as an awkward attempt to shoe-horn racial diversity into the Legion without really trying to hard. Also, you risk putting off fans who can be put off by a simple costume changes. Introduce new characters with new abilities and then make room at the table even if it means cutting back on the original casts lines (they'll survive). And more important, once they decide to add more races, they need to stick with it. I always felt Tyroc had the everything it took to be one of the GREATS if they'd had committed themselves to that end.
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Put me down as being against changing the race of established characters. I'd prefer to bring in new characters from varied cultures, and phase out old ones. I know some people would be upset about missing one of their favorites, but as long as the newbie was well written, and worthy, then it could be fine.
The Invisible Kid example is a tad extreme because Lyle died, but replacing him with Jacques was an excellent way of filling a void AND expanding diversity. Replacing Saturn Girl with Tellus was cool, because he was SO different from her, and she was elsewhere, fine.
I would approve of that being done with more of the classic Legionnaires. Which ones? Tough call. It'd have to make sense....
Another note... by the end of the preboot, the Legion's universe was very, very diverse. Dawnstar and Tyroc were no longer extreme stereotypes. In fact, they had very interesting new personas, like them or not.
The reboot is a whole other subject, but the core Legion looked pretty much the same as the preboot one. But it was a reboot. That's different.
posted
It could become clumsy to try and explain the cast whiteness with a backstory; it becomes contemporary social commentary, which I don't think has worked that well when it's been too direct.
Changing races is okay for a limited number of characters. Currently, we have Thom as the black guy, Vi and Val as the pretty-much Asian looking characters, depending how they're drawn. One blue, one green skin. We're missing Hispanics, all the Earth aboriginal peoples and non-humanoid aliens.
It would probably be easiest to add diversity gradually, with current members splitting off (like Sun Boy), retiring or, if they have to, dying. In the meantime, the regular supporting cast could become very diverse.
Apart from it not corresponding to my sense of a positive future in which all races are equal, I don't really think about the lack of diversity within a given story - maybe because I'm a white person. What I have noticed, in comics generally, is how WASPish the names are. Even the futuristic Legion names strike me as quite anglosaxon.
posted
I'll take #2. We've seen changing the race of heroes is unpopular for the both races involved.
Many already critcize legacy characters who are black. Here is where I think Gear succeeded. A black android!!!
I think it's possible to have a very large cast of characters. Maybe not all members mind you. Supporting cast is fine with me.
Asians. Don't they make up like half the world? You are telling me in a thousand years there are going to be just two asians on the team.
I'd throw some old minority characters into the mix. XS, Dragonmage, Gear, Tryoc, Jacques, Quantum Kid. How cool would it be to see the PC Legion have the ZH young members join?
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
EDE, also to comment on one of your other posts from another thread.
Robert A. Heinlein used lots of minority characters in his sci-fi stories.
I know "Starship Troopers" main character is Filipino Juan "Johnnie" Rico.
This is in 1959. Pretty impressive and outside the box IMO. Heinlein was also alluding to race in many of his books via alien races, etc. A decade before marvel did something similiar with mutants in the X-Men.
His characters were far from stereotypes also. Taken from Wiki
"In The Star Beast, a harried African bureaucrat is sympathetically portrayed as the behind-the-scenes master of the world government's foreign policy, while several other (presumably white) officials are portrayed variously as misguided, foolish, or well-meaning but parochial and prejudiced."
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Damn, that quote about Star Beast reminds me of Colin Powell.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
I'm partial to option 2. Add new characters.
The 'classic' Legionnaires are what they are, and, generally, for better or worse, that's white.
*Some* of them, I think are pretty easy to bend. Karate Kid becoming more Asian in features fits the character concept (since otherwise, he's just another of those 'American Ninja / Samurai / Kickboxer' movie cliches that were so painful), Cosmic Boy has always had a hispanic or even asian look to him, even with the blue eyes, Ferro Lad being black also fits the original concept.
Garth has always been Irish/Scottish in appearance, so it would be jarring for me if he changed. (And in my fanfic, I had Ranzz be a 1000 year old corruption of the 'Ryans.')
Turning Projectra into a snake was just cringe-worthy. I'm fine with snakes. Introduce a snake, just leave Jeckie the hell alone. She's been through enough!
Given that the majority of the world is brown (hispanic / middle eastern / east indian), black (african) or yellow (asian), white should be a serious minority by the 30th century. White skin has always been a minority in the past, and is only becoming more of one as time goes on. As the races mingle, I would expect the 30th century people to be uniformly darker skinned with brown eyes and black hair.
One thing I've always liked about the Legion is that even if it was a 'white boys club,' it included some of the only brunette characters in comics. A vast majority of super-heroes seem to be blondes, with the occasional redheads and black-haired heroes. Brown hair, like Colossal Boy and Triplicate Girl and Ultra Boy, was pretty rare.
I was a fan of Kid Quantum II, and wouldn't mind seeing XS show up again. The team doesn't have to have a sudden influx of 'minorities' to start moving in that direction. It doesn't have to be all at once, and there doesn't need to be some sort of 'formula' or 'quota' applied, where the writers sit down and say, 'we have 25 members, and 8 of them can be white, and the others have to be other colors...'
Heck with that noise. Artificially adding 'colored' characters according to a formula is as racist as not having any in the first place, IMO.
I'm fine with the majority of UP races being humanoid, as so many worlds seem to be descended from Earth in the first place. The problem becomes when the artists show hundreds of different aliens in the backgrounds, but none in the team. It begs the obvious question, 'Why don't the floating fish people have any heroes? Do they suck? What about the bird-lady pushing her egg? Are her people all cowards?'
With the arrival of truly alien supers in the Baxter era (the Gil'Dishpan supers, for instance), as well as Tellus, I was pretty impressed that they were 'getting there.' But them, crash, reboot, back to the 'homo sapiens only club.'
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
This thread got me thinking about how the Legion compares to other superteams when it comes to race/diveristy in the membership so I started a thread about that over on Gym'll's. Hope you guys pop over to Diversity on Superteams...How does the Legion stack up? and add your thoughts.
As to the topic here, I have to say that I don't care for changing an existing character in order to diversify though I have no objection to correcting the portrayal of one.
As an example I would point out that Val was half American & half Japanese from day one yet he was often drawn as fully caucasian. He really should be portrayed more accurately, not as one or the other. And someone else on this thread has already pointed out that Ferro Lad was intended to be black yet was always drawn with "white" hands.
What I would prefer is the direction that the writers took in the Legion's past. #2~Increase diversity by adding new members.
The addition of Blok, Quislet, Tellus, etc really helped make the Legion seem much more like a team composed of all types of sentinents from the universe. Other additions such as Jenni, Gates, KQ, Dragonmage, just added to that feel over the years. Just think what the Legion would have been like had Dave Cockrum's ideas for new members come to pass! Nightcrawler, Typhoon, etc would have really made this an incredibly diverse group.
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote: Originally posted by Set: Garth has always been Irish/Scottish in appearance, so it would be jarring for me if he changed. (And in my fanfic, I had Ranzz be a 1000 year old corruption of the 'Ryans.')
Actually, Ranz/Rantz/Renz is a real-life name of Germanic origin, and Germans do indeed have their share of red-heads. Krin(ns)/Crin(ns) is Germanic as well. Ardeen/Arden is English. Except for a few obvious cases (Querl Dox, Reep Daggle), they didn't pull the names completely out of thin air.
quote: Originally posted by Set: As the races mingle, I would expect the 30th century people to be uniformly darker skinned with brown eyes and black hair.
Mother Nature is full of surprises. For example, my sister-in-law is of African, American Indian and European ancestry, but for reasons beyond her control she looks as "white" as most people who define themselves as white. For all we know, environmental conditions and natural genetic mutations may conspire to favor lighter skin in humans in the next thousand years. Maybe scientists were able to reverse global warming and solar radiation but went too far in the other direction.
I expect DC to do what they've done in other books, that is, leave the existing characters alone for the most part (without any in-continuity explanations why they're so white) and gradually introduce new ones reflecting greater diversity. In the meantime, they'll surround the main characters with a supporting cast of different races and species, as WaK have done. I'm willing to play along.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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