When the Legionnaires defeat Darkseid in LSH v2 #294, he curses them with "The curse of darkness growing within you, destroying you from within … and that which is purest of you shall be the first to go !"
Obviously the first part refers to the fact that the "curse" is one of Imra's future children... but what is "that which is purest of you"? Does that refer to Lyle (i.e. the first and only Legionnaire who Validus killed), or what?
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
Atually Lyle being killed by Validus happened long before Darkseid made the scene. And long before Validus was ret-conned.
I think the "purest of you" is referencing the baby Darkseid steals.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Wasn't Light Lass the first Legionnaire to leave after the curse?
I took it that he meant her.
Or else Karate Kid, who was the next to leave... in a more permanent fashion.
I'm forgetting Mentalla, though. 'Pure' doesn't really describe her, though. Not that she was 'impure', just not pure in the way you could argue Ayla and Val were, in different ways.
Oh, did Sir Tim Drake mean the *fake* Lyle in the Dream Dimension? Maybe Lyle *was* there all along-- and Darkseid's curse caused the Dream Demon (that was it's name, wasn't it? Could've been 'Dreamon'...) to take Lyle's place, hiding him from Wildfire, etc.s' view... All those years, maybe Lyle *could've* been alive and a member!
I always somewhat disliked that storyline... especially compared to what surrounded it. Now, I feel a bit better about it-- and worse!
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Alas, we'll never know the answer for sure, unless Paul Levitz tells us what he meant by the curse.
There's probably a good chance that Levitz himself didn't have anything specific in mind. The curse may have been just a device to keep us guessing (like Londo's five predictions on "Babylon 5"). After all, "pure" and "to go" are vague enough terms that can apply to any number of characters (Ayla, Val, even Magnetic Kid).
However, Darkseid's wording -- "that which is purest of you" -- led me to believe he wasn't refering to a specific person, but maybe an aspect or ideal of the Legion. Perhaps the loss of this aspect or ideal led to the Legion's disintegration during the Five Years Gap.
Posted by superboymddjr on :
I wonder how did it lead into another story - "the Quiet Darkness" - does it signify the death of Darkseid?
Posted by Tromium on :
The 1986 annual provides no answers, either. In that story Ol-Vir follows Validus around wondering how Darkseid's curse will ultimately be fulfilled and we're teased with the possibilities that he might kill more Legionnaires, his parents or his brother, or be killed by his own father. But in the end it turns out to be little more than an elaborate practical joke. Darkseid has his belly-laugh, gives little Val back to his parents, and everybody goes home.
The whole thing was one of Levitz's less stellar ideas, imo, made even worse by the next creative team, who just couldn't leave bad enough alone.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I always took it that the key point was Imra's acknowledge that she needed the darkness, needed the evil, which should've have ramifications down the line.
TMK, though, as I understood it, try to fulfill the curse through the whole "Validus Plague" idea, which also never really got developed.
Posted by Matthew E on :
You know what would make a great story? Imagine if Darkseid's curse turned out to have the effect of creating all these reboots and other calamities the Legion has encountered since then - the removal of Superboy, the Mordruverse, Zero Hour, the time calamity in the Titans/Legion Special... but the idea of the Legion is just too strong to be defeated by any of these things, and keeps coming back.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I like Matthew's idea.
But I've always taken it to mean exactly what EDE has said above.
I'll tell you though, and I'm probably in the vast minority, if there was ever a story about how Darkseid cursed the Legion and they could 'break' the curse to come out as they were at the GDS, I'd be like a six year old kid at Xmas. And when I was actually a six year old kid at Xmas in real life, GDS was a couple of years old by then...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Although, perhaps the curse was that one day Legion fans would be forced to read DnA's Darkseid Legion story? That bastard! He really did curse us!
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Although, perhaps the curse was that one day Legion fans would be forced to read DnA's Darkseid Legion story? That bastard! He really did curse us!
Yeah, Foundations was crap, but not THAT crap!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Well, I certainly didn't like it, but its a pure tongue in cheek comment . I personally feel like that one was purely editorial driven but have no evidence to back it up. I feel like it partially killed the reboot, but thats neither here nor there...
One thing I always wanted to see explored was a further back and forth b/t Mordru and Darkseid in some way. It felt like there was a connection there that could be followed up on (not a 'secret' per se, just something there given that Mordru was in the 2 Darkseid Levitz stories).
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: I personally feel like that one was purely editorial driven but have no evidence to back it up.
I think so too, and have said so in the past - the way Darkseid got written off in Dream Crime, and the way that the Cadets & Mekt threads from #25 got dropped so hard (along with all the other plots, including Thom and Cub - note that, from #26-on, Foundations is the only DnA arc not to stem out of something in Lost, Worlds or the earlier issues - and the Worlds #3 lead was still to be followed up on, and #25 put Cos near Braal...) suggests Mr. Whacker was bearing down hard on them to do a Darkseid arc, and perhaps outright telling them what to do, and their heart wasn't in it.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: I feel like it partially killed the reboot, but thats neither here nor there...
Well, technically, sales went up, but the quality certainly dipped - although it got better again for the last Singularity two parter. I still really, really wish we'd got to see DnA's #34-36 to tie up the Cub arc, and don't see why Whacker ordered them off at #33 when there were still five issues left...
Posted by Superboy on :
I always thought he was referring to Giffen's art. I know I suddenly started doing a lot of cursing about it.
[ June 02, 2006, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Superboy on :
Seriously though, I always thought the curse was referring to the run of bad luck and character deaths the Legion had throughout the Baxter series, beginning with the death of Karate Kid.
It could be argued that since Karate Kid fought with basically nothing more than the human spirit and no superpowers that he was the purest.
Follow that up with the deaths of Superboy and SuperGirl and...there are definite signs of a curse of the pure.
And as someone else mentioned...Darkseid could have also been referring to when Invisible Kid was killed originally.
I never looked at it as Validus himself being the curse...only part of it. The part that hurt Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl? His return could have signalled the end of it though...or not.
Cosmic Boy's little brother also got killed...can't remember if that was after Darkseid lifted the curse or not though.
But to me the Legion was definitely cursed in the Baxter series era...their history was destroyed and so were some of my favorite characters...whether that was intentional by Levitz or not...there's no doubt that Darkseid's curse turned out to be eerily prophetic, as the Legion Universe was deconstructed and dismantled during the Baxter run. It was a well written and character indepth deconstruction and dismantling, but it was a deconstruction and dismantling nontheless.
[ June 02, 2006, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
A couple of more ideas:
1. "That which is purest" could also refer to baby Validus, as does the "darkness growing within you." After all, what could be more pure than an unborn or newborn infant?
2. Following on my idea that Darkseid was refering to a concept instead of a person, this could mean that the Legion somehow betrayed its own ideals in such a way that the organization itself was corrupted beyond redemption. Perhaps this happened slowly, almost impercetibly at first. (Think of Charles Foster Kane's slow descent from idealism to corruption in "Citizen Kane.")
What incident could have triggered such a decay in the Legion? One possibility (and I'm going out on a limb here) is the group's readmittance of Sensor Girl/Projectra after she had executed Nemesis Kid. This event ignored (in other words, betrayed) the long-standing tradition of Legionnaires not killing.
Some might point out that Star Boy killed and was readmitted to the Legion after being expelled, but there are a couple of problems with this theory. One, Star Boy killed in self-defense. Even though Brainy proved that Star Boy had at least one other alternative to killing Kenz Nuhor (bonking him on the head with a heavy tree limb -- which, Querl forgot to mention, might have broken Nuhor's neck anyway), it was still self-defense. Two, Star Boy was in fact expelled. Perhaps that punishment satisfied the moral imperative that mandated no killing.
Projectra, on the other hand, executed Nemesis Kid, who, at that moment, was helpless before her. (She snapped his neck. There is no way Nemesis Kid would have allowed her to do so if he could have prevented it.) She was, of course, within her rights as queen of Orando to mete out punishment to criminals as she saw fit (notwithstanding that Nemesis Kid had just fatally injured her lover and consort, who then sacrificed himself). But exercising this right was counter to the Legion's code against killing. Legionnaires have never been in the revenge business. And, at the heart of Projectra's act was a motive of revenge.
Projectra, of course, was not an active Legionnaire at the time of the execution. She and Val had resigned their membership so she could become queen. (It's unclear to me if they retained Legion Reserve status.) Nevertheless, when Projectra rejoined the Legion as Sensor Girl, and particularly after her true identity was revealed to the team, no punishment was given to her similar to that given to Star Boy. The moral imperative was not satisfied.
Why should it matter if the moral imperative was satisfied or not? In the real world, it probably wouldn't make much difference. But in the world of the Legion back then, heroes did not kill. Whether this standard was realistic is beside the point. It was, nonetheless, the standard by which all Legionnaires agreed to abide, including Projectra. Had Projectra killed Nemesis Kid and never returned to the Legion, it probably wouldn't have mattered (after all, her moral imperatives as queen were decidedly different than the moral imperatives she had to uphold as a Legionnaire). But by rejoining the Legion, she opened the door to other kinds of "special rules" and "exceptions." During the Five Year Gap, for example, the Legion admitted several new members who wouldn't have been allowed to polish their flight rings earlier -- an indication, perhaps, of how low Legion standards had fallen (and also a probable indication of how desperate they were to fill their ranks after several key members had quit).
It may be no coincidence that the Legion's decline accelerated after Projectra became leader: Long-term members quit -- including, ironically, Projectra herself. But by then, the damage had already been done. The team went on to experience its darkest days and collapsed altogether, as chronicled in the Five Year Gap/Five Years Later period.
"That which is purest" may therefore refer to the Legion's subtle abandonment of its principles which held that Legionnaires do not kill. It is understandable that the Legion would want to keep Projectra on the team: After all, she was a long-time friend, colleague, and someone they all valued and admired. But the funny thing about principles is they must apply equally to everyone, or they serve no one. By ignorning this principle, the Legion essentially valued their friendship above the ideals they were sworn to uphold.
At least that's my late-night/nothing-better-to-do interpretation.
Thoughts?
Posted by Not-So-Bad Lad on :
An interesting take, to be sure; I don't think Lev had anything in mind when he did it; maybe The Quiet Darkness, but I don't think so. I think it was just something to have when creativity ran dry for a spell and he needed a story.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Projectra . . . was, of course, within her rights as queen of Orando to mete out punishment to criminals as she saw fit (notwithstanding that Nemesis Kid had just fatally injured her lover and consort, who then sacrificed himself). But exercising this right was counter to the Legion's code against killing. Legionnaires have never been in the revenge business. And, at the heart of Projectra's act was a motive of revenge. Thoughts?
Just one at the moment. Projectra didn't even have the right to execute Nemesis Kid in her role as queen. A couple of issues before the Great Darkness Saga (LSH #287?) when her cousin Pharoxx was the acting king, it was stated that the king was not allowed to act as executioner, "for so it is writ in our laws." Presumably if the king is not allowed to execute a prisoner, neither is the queen.
However, I agree with your overall hypothesis. If Star Boy was expelled for killing in self-defense, Projectra should not have been readmitted after killing for revenge. Interesting that the two cases are also parallel in another way: Both Star Boy and Projectra rejoined the Legion in disguise after killing, and then were allowed to remain after their disguises were revealed.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Projectra didn't even have the right to execute Nemesis Kid in her role as queen. A couple of issues before the Great Darkness Saga (LSH #287?) when her cousin Pharoxx was the acting king, it was stated that the king was not allowed to act as executioner, "for so it is writ in our laws." Presumably if the king is not allowed to execute a prisoner, neither is the queen.
Good point, Jim. I had forgotten the Pharoxx reference.
One might suppose that the laws of Orando allowed the king or queen a certain flexiblity in times of war, but her actions still should have been investigated and deliberated upon, by both the Legion and whatever governing body the queen answered to.
[ June 16, 2006, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Not-So-Bad Lad: An interesting take, to be sure; I don't think Lev had anything in mind when he did it; maybe The Quiet Darkness, but I don't think so. I think it was just something to have when creativity ran dry for a spell and he needed a story.
The interesting thing about writing stories is that they sometimes take on a life of their own. Levitz may have subconsciously intended something along the lines of what I suggest, or it may have occurred to him gradually during his long tenure as writer. (I know that the decision to have Sensor Girl turn out to be Projectra instead of Supergirl was a last-minute switch, but its interesting that Levitz never dealt with the fact that Projecta had essentially committed murder. On one hand, this could merely reflect the '80s acceptance of the anti-hero, such as Wolverine. On the other hand, Levitz was also a long-time Legion fan before he became a writer, so he surely knew how important the code against killing was to them.)
Or, you could be right, and there was nothing intended by the prophecy.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
. I personally feel like that one was purely editorial driven but have no evidence to back it up. I feel like it partially killed the reboot, but thats neither here nor there...