We all know about some of the controversial, big changes TMK made in Legion history/continuity. This topic is about some of the smaller and more subtle ones.
Two that stand out from v4 #1:
Zaryan as a Khund: Zaryan, who was originally a space-pirate who tried to invade the Earth using robots and a "some assembly required" space-ship, suddenly becomes the leader of the "First Khund Invasion" of Earth.
The Legion saves the Eyth system: Though actually a mistake on the part of Tom and Mary, this was made canon in the first v4 annual when it was revealed that rather than being destroyed as in the original story, it had been shifted into the "Bgztl Buffer Zone".
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
These smaller retcons are the ones that made TMK so fun for me. Most of the time, they were pretty cool IMO.
One of them is that Tinya and Thom had a brief relationship before she ditched him for Jo (although I can't remember where this is shown). Although the Adventure era had one issue (and only a handful of panels) showing Tinya's seduction of Thom, TMK quickly retconned it into something more. This might even explain the snotty attitude Tinya (and Tasmia) had to Thom during Levitz's run, and one more reason Thom was so pessimistic all the time.
There are others as well IIRC. Anyone remember them?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The Tinya-Thom thing is actually a gossip-column interpretation of the events of the "Girl's Revolt" story, just as the "secret marriage" between Tinya and Jo is a reference the "The Weddings that Wrecked the Legion".
Posted by DrakeB3003 on :
While not on the level of the Sean and Garth retcons, I hated what they did to Dev-Em, making him the "Mad Daxamite". I'm not 100% sure, but they didn't just make him crazy, I believe they retconned out all his previous appearances!
Posted by Super Lad Kid on :
I believe they were also the first to use the codename Triad instead of Triplicate Girl. This was done, not in the Legionnaies series, but all the way back in issue # 8 or 9, Laurel Gand's origin issue.
Posted by matlock on :
The assasination attempt on R.J. Brande which prompted the formation of the Legion was reduced from 3 assailants down to 1. The idea was given in an interview or letter column that the event had been built up in peoples minds to a larger than life scenario, this despite the fact that we'd seen the 3 would-be killers paroled in an early V3 story.
Posted by DrakeB3003 on :
Squire Burroughs as Drake's brother -- that came out of nowhere and only served to tease Wildfire fans (like me!) for no reason (he was in one inconsequential scene and somehow made it to the cover? Gee, I wonder why...).
Posted by matlock on :
A few more:
Post-Valor, Glorith was behind Brainiac 5's mental breakdown, and I think it could be reasonable inferred that the Time Trapper did the same pre-Valor.
The Tornado Twins, previously only referred to as Barry Allen's descendents now became his and Iris' own children, unless that had been revealed in Who's Who or something like that.
As of Action Comics 384 Lar Gand was not the dominant psyche in his own body, having been submerged by that of his distant relative Eltro Gand. I particularly despised this one almost as much as Proty/Garth and Pro-Fem, since Lar's moody and introspective personality were part of what made him an interesting character to my mind. I realize they were motivated by their need to recast him as a faux-Superboy but I think it could have been done without such a step. I think "Valor's" 20th century heroic career might have been enough of a difference from "Mon-El's" solitary life as a non-powered space explorer to have accounted for their different 30th century experiences. I don't take issue with the Valor retcon as a whole, driven to it by circumstances as they were, just that part of it.
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
My favorite of the minor TMK retcons was making Molock the Merciless, from way back in Adventure # 320, the brother of the late Starfinger I.
A probably inadvertent retcon that was well worth it was that the Batcave, which had apparently been discovered (see Adventure Comics # 341), was actually just being unearthed in the TMK era (meaning that the one used in that earlier issue was probably a historical reproduction). The "Titan Presidents" thing was hilarious.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I actually think it's funnier if one considers that Tenzil knows full well that what he's uncovering is the Batcave, having been there in Adv. #341, and he's just playing the "Titan Presidents of Bismoll" nonsense for all it's worth.
I find it hard to believe that Tom and Mary, given their impeccable knowledge of the Adventure era, would have forgotten that the Legion had visited the Batcave.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by matlock: The Tornado Twins, previously only referred to as Barry Allen's descendents now became his and Iris' own children, unless that had been revealed in Who's Who or something like that.
I'm pretty certain this predates TMK, being the result of the revelation that Barry had live in the 30th century for awhile.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
quote:Originally posted by matlock: The Tornado Twins, previously only referred to as Barry Allen's descendents now became his and Iris' own children, unless that had been revealed in Who's Who or something like that.
I'm pretty certain this predates TMK, being the result of the revelation that Barry had live in the 30th century for awhile.
It was ceretainly a logical outcome since Barry and Iris didn't have kids in the 20th C, and lived happily ever after for a few months in 30.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
don't forget undoing Luornu's second death, making presumed-dead-body-two a Glorith henchperson.
Also, having Brainy as the actual killer of Ayn (TMK ann #1) undoes #273, where Pulsar Stargrave was revealed as the culprit.
[ July 27, 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Kent Shakespeare ]
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
Kent:
quote:Also, having Brainy as the actual killer of Ayn (TMK ann #1) undoes #273, where Pulsar Stargrave was revealed as the culprit.
Actually, all TMK Annual # 1 says is that Brainy framed Ultra Boy. It doesn't directly address the issue of An's murder, and Pulsar Stargrave could still very well have been the trigger-man.
Do recall that, pre-TMK, the Time Trapper was involved in Pulsar Stargrave's first appearance. So if that Time Trapper appearance is retconned post-TMK as being Glorith, then it could be that Glorith had alerted Stargrave to Brainy's altered mental state after she drove him nuts and Stargrave took advantage by killing An and using Brainy as his stooge.
(It must be true, my Legion Help file says so! )
Posted by matlock on :
I thought this was a funny bit of retcon-related lettercol chicanery from the Bierbaums:
The retcon in question was the insertion of the "real" Reflecto into continuity by the Bierbaums as a Rimborian hero who competed against Jo Nah for Legion membership. In response to a question regarding V4 Annual 1 featuring several panels depicting Reflecto, the Bierbaums responded by saying something along the lines of "they always felt he was probably a real hero" (just like they always felt Garth was really Proty, no doubt) but then added that the "real" Reflecto had already been established in Secret Origins # 42. The issue in question featured Phantom Girl's origin including her first meeting with Jo and includes a small cameo by the "real" Reflecto.
So I thought, well okay, the Bierbaums are off the hook for this particular bit of retconning. I knew that various hands wrote that series so I figured it could have been done by anyone. Then I pulled out the issue in question. Guess what? It was written by none other than the Bierbaums. So the precedent they referenced as substantiating the depiction of Reflecto in the annual was based on their own work. I don't care that they threw Reflecto into continuity and then killed him off-panel, but still it seems pretty lame to act like it wasn't their idea in the first place.
Anyway, I recommend that Secret Origins issue because it has some real nice art from Dave Cockrum even if he didn't get to reprise Tinya's bellbottoms.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Well, you know, precedent was also set by the mentioning of "Stig Ah Plaza" in v4 #1!
Seriously, though, that's a great story, matlock!
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
good point, Chaim. I'd forgotten that... it would be just like the Trapper to have a pseudo-Brainiac 1 waiting in the wings.
Posted by matlock on :
Something I liked about the Zaryan retcon: they name-dropped him during the v4 Khund War/Red Mist story as sort of a paragon of a disappearing Khund code of honor that General Kiritan still adhered to. Zaryan was also used in Laurel Gand's origin and in the same Secret Origins issue featuring Phantom Girl. Upon her arrival on Earth Tinya inadverdently got involved with a group who wanted to use her abilities to steal Earth's defense secrets for which Zaryan was offering something like a billion credits. Given the large amount of money involved it would seem to me that the Bierbaums had already decided on the retcon months in advance of V4 issue 1. I mean, would a pirate have that kind of bankroll?
Posted by Cad Lad on :
This is a little off-topic but, as a fan of the TMK era, I was wondering if anyone knew what the Bierbaums got up to after the Legion?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by matlock: Upon her arrival on Earth Tinya inadverdently got involved with a group who wanted to use her abilities to steal Earth's defense secrets for which Zaryan was offering something like a billion credits.
Is that the Meglaro-Landro ring? Tinya's involvement with that is mentioned in v4 #2. Which is another cool tying in of an ancient part of Legion history.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Wasn't Nardo revealed to have some connection to the Dark Circle? I seem to recall something about him giving genetic samples of the prisoners in his Super-Stalag to them, which was part of the teasing about the possible origins of the "clone" Legion.
Of course, Nardo didn't capture all of the Legionnaires who had SW6 versions, so it wouldn't have worked, but it was interesting nonetheless.
[ July 28, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
That's the one.
I'm surprised Alkator never made a TMK appearance. Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
They didn't use Kranyak in the Sun Boy spotlight, either, did they? A shame, if not.
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
EDE, Nardo was indeed revealed as a Dark Circle agent, but you are correct - the documents mentioning this said he was not in fact the source of the SW6 genetic material. IIRC, it was evetually obtained from the Legion's own cell banks (for potential future cloning, though good cloning technology was not yet known to legitimate scientists, as per Superboy # 206) by Universo.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
You know, it would have been really cool if the Dark Circle had shown up with an army of cloned Super-Stalag prisoners!
Posted by matlock on :
Well, really how far are you going to get with a bunch of shifty Weight Wizard clones?
All these subtle stitchings together of Legion Lore really make me wish that "Legionnaires" hadn't been repurposed to telling SW6 stories but had retold the Silver Age stories in the Valor continuity as originally planned. I think it would have been a lot of fun.
Another tiny post-Valor retcon: Element 152, which was what flight rings were made of, picked up the alternate name of Valorium after it's creator.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I agree, completely, matlock. As a matter of fact, I'd have much rather read the "new" versions of old stories by the Bierbaums than the watered down re-hashings of old stories we got after the reboot.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I would have definately liked that too.
And you guys are dropping all kinds of TMK retcons that I've forgot or never even picked up on! Cool!
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
I would definitely have preferred the "old stories" concept of Legionnaires, but I loved the early reboot era. The reboot Mano was much better than the pre-boot one (until DnA idiotically made him a regular teammate of the other Fatal Fivers, I'm still not sure how that happened), I thought the re-introductions of Dirk Morgna and Doctor Regulus and of the various original Workforce members fit well with a gradual blending into Legion lore. I also thought the Superboy 3-parter was well-done.
I think the team lost its way with the Fatal Five/Chu sting storyline. While an obvious nod to prior continuity, it felt like a forced "fast-forward" of Legion history to the Shooter-Swan era for which most Legion fans had nostalgia. It was a fun story, and some of the stories that followed were enjoyable as well...I loved the Emerald Vi-Mordru and COMPUTO stories...but it was at that point that it seemed the decision was made to throw in old Legion elements and stories willy-nilly rather than try to grow the team at a manageable pace.
Posted by matlock on :
It would've also been much more satisfying if the grown up Legion had been the victors over the Dominators instead of sitting around on Talus... what? Playing cards or getting beat up by BION or whatever they were doing while SW6 and the Subs did all the heavy lifting. That would have actually made it feel like "the Legion" was back in the substantial way that the early TMK issues made it seem like they were going to be.
Another, and not very necessary, TMK retcon: Zuunium gave Brin constant physical pain, and was gradually eroding his mental capacity long before Black Dawn kicked it into overdrive. It turns out he wasn't kind of awkward and ever so "slow" because it was effective characterization but on account of, you know, brain damage.
That actually brings up something that I don't suppose really rises to the level of "retcon" but I guess what you might call revisionism: several Legionnaires had their personalities totally reworked from the Levitz era: Jo, Garth (the "real" Garth) and Dirk were all quite differently presented during TMK and later by the Bierbaums solo. Rokk also gained a much greater stature in the Legion than he had previously been seen to have. He always seemed respected as a founder but he wasn't ever seen as "the heart and soul of the Legion" until TMK up and said he was.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by matlock: Another, and not very necessary, TMK retcon: Zuunium gave Brin constant physical pain, and was gradually eroding his mental capacity long before Black Dawn kicked it into overdrive. It turns out he wasn't kind of awkward and ever so "slow" because it was effective characterization but on account of, you know, brain damage.
Wasn't the Lotus Fruit addiction story retconned to a Zuunium addiction story? That may have been in the post-TMK Timber Wolf spotlight, however...
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
Not quite, I think it was played as an effect of a generally addictive personality, which was originally caused by Zuunium dependence.
Posted by MLLASH on :
I liked how Kid Quantum was seamlessly retconned into Legion lore; i bet few even noticed! Posted by Sanity or Madness? on :
quote:Originally posted by Chaim Mattis Keller: (It must be true, my Legion Help file says so! )
So, are we ever going to get a Worlds/The Legion update, before you need to add a "NewER version" link?
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
I hope to. When I can spare the money to attempt to salvage my old hard drive.
Curse on me for not backing up my Legion files recently enough.
Posted by matlock on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I liked how Kid Quantum was seamlessly retconned into Legion lore; i bet few even noticed!
And they even managed to work in more Protean junk along with him. They were really, really hung up on the Proties weren't they? The Proties backstory got more development than any of the new v4 members like Kent or Celeste.
[ July 29, 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: matlock ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The Antarean subplot actually got freakish amount of airtime in the pre-Shooter Adventure era, so it's not surprising that writers as obsessed with that era as Tom and Mary would emphasize it.
Posted by matlock on :
Next up - the Legion of Super-drug-addled-cultish-Villians. For some reason, the LSV was rejiggered into having been run from behind the scenes from it's earliest incarnation by Cosmic King (remember that his earliest in-continuity appearance was during the LSH/LSV war) who we are told was using drugs on the other members and was sort of a creepy Mordru-worshipping cult figure. The only thing I can think of to explain this was that maybe they wanted to give Spider-Girl (and Ronn Karr to a lesser extent) an "out" for her LSV membership in order to transition her to semi-hero status.
Saturn Queen was also given retroactive behind-the-scenes membership as well. Her only appearances in the group were as part of the Adult LSV in the Adventure days but apparently she was there the whole time.
[ July 29, 2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: matlock ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Eeeew! I really don't like that as an idea for the LSV.
Personally, I've always thought the Dynamo Boy story should have been retconned as the origin of the LSV, in a kind of criminal takeover of the LSH.
Posted by matlock on :
Oh, and the LSV retcon was also used to partially explain Mekt Ranzz' psychotic behavior as well. I guess there weren't really many real villians on the LSV at all.
Posted by Cad Lad on :
I always kind of found the LSV, especially in its later forms, kind of pathetic. I mean, weren't half of the later LSV just bitter rejected LSH applicants?
I can just picture some poor S+LSH era reject walking, dejectedly, out of the tryouts and hearing "the line forming to your left is for the Legion of Substitute Heroes, to the one to the right is for those interested in joining the LSV..."
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I don't think the LSV has ever been done quite right. And it's not clear why a lot of the rejected applicants went to the LSV ranks rather than the Subs.
I like the Levitz era "army of super-villains" concept, but it's membership seemed to be a bit too disparate and unorganized for my tastes. Tyr, for instance, didn't really seem to fit in to that group.
That's why I really like the idea of a criminal working his way into the Legion, then gradually trying to replace it's members with criminals as a story of how they all come together. They could of course then add members, but that would make a really plausible foundation as to why these people would end up working together.
Posted by matlock on :
Here's another one of those tiny little retcons:
The unfortunate victim of the lab accident that let to Dr. Regulus' dismissal and eventual villiany went from poor ol' Zarl Hendricks to poor ol' green-skinned lab assistant lady. I suppose it might have been to reinforce Dirk's negative relationships with women (as interpreted by TMK at least.)
Personally I think the entire V4 representation of Dirk as a selfish borderline crazy jerk was a retcon, but I don't want to editorialize here.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Ah, I thought something seemed wrong about Alisia's death. It was supposed to be Zarl!
Posted by matlock on :
I like to think somewhere in the "Valor" continuity there's a safe and happy Zarl. Someone deserved to come out on the good side of a retcon for once and why not poor ol' Zarl?
Posted by Starcrossed on :
After the Adventure era stories, v4 is probably my favorite era. Now I know why! This thread has tied up some TMK loose threads for me and definitely deserves to be bumped. And, may I say, that EDE is a sprockin' Brainiac when it comes to Legion lore! Eyth? Stig Ah Plaza? Alisia? Jillikers! Posted by Cad Lad on :
Was the 'Dark Circle as Fanatical Space Cult' thing a TMK retcon? They just sorta seem like crazy invaders in the battered copy of Adventure I own with them in it. Was it TMK or a previous team that had them find God?
Posted by YellowBeast Kid on :
TMK brought them together in worship and violent harmony, I do believe. Previously we had seen them as a big gang pile of a few cloned individuals and before that as that mysterious invading army that Val miracle machined off the planet. After the new boot they showed up under the command of Braniac 4.
...I think that's right...
We could just forget that "seeder of worlds" annual and I wouldn't miss it a bit.
Posted by Alchemical King on :
I loved the seeder of worlds annual! Posted by Ultra Cyborg on :
I love both annual #1 and #2 of v4. Especially number #1 where Ultra Boy plays the dummy and dances circles around the arrogant time goddess Glorith and the powerful wizard Mordu!
I guess I am a big fan of both Jo and Mon-El so I really enjoyed these two stories!
Jorge
[ September 21, 2004, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: Ultra Cyborg ]
Posted by Ultra Cyborg on :
quote: Zaryan as a Khund: Zaryan, who was originally a space-pirate who tried to invade the Earth using robots and a "some assembly required" space-ship, suddenly becomes the leader of the "First Khund Invasion" of Earth. [/QB]
Wasn't Zaryan mentioned as a Khund in the Who's Who in the Legion of Super-Heroes? So maybe the editor Waid is responsible for this rather TMK.
Not sure.
Jorge
Posted by 235 - Andy S on :
quote:Originally posted by matlarrk: Next up - the Legion of Super-drug-addled-cultish-Villians. For some reason, the LSV was rejiggered into having been run from behind the scenes from it's earliest incarnation by Cosmic King (remember that his earliest in-continuity appearance was during the LSH/LSV war) who we are told was using drugs on the other members and was sort of a creepy Mordru-worshipping cult figure. The only thing I can think of to explain this was that maybe they wanted to give Spider-Girl (and Ronn Karr to a lesser extent) an "out" for her LSV membership in order to transition her to semi-hero status.
When was this? I enjoyed a lot of TMK, but I missed this completely.
Posted by matlarrk on :
It didn't really play out in the series itself, but was referred to in the Who's Who series from the period (the "loose-leaf edition") and in the Mayfair DC RPG Sourcebook which had background info written by the Bierbaums. It might have also been mentioned in the text pages concerning Spider Girl, but I can't remember now.
Posted by Wonder Yellow on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I liked how Kid Quantum was seamlessly retconned into Legion lore; i bet few even noticed!
I vaguely remember a dialogue bit where Sun Boy and Lightning Lad are in a conversation and someone mentions the death of Kid Quantum. I swear this happened several issues before James' dramatic return.
Wasn't that amusing? The Legionnaire that never existed suddenly turns out to be practically a founder and we never knew it. I felt somewhat insulted by the writers but I liked the character so I didn't complain about it.
Posted by Kent on :
It makes sense that anomolies arose from Glorith and Rond reconstructing the timeline.
In TT time, Glorith would have never invaded Antares II, so there was no need for a Soul of Antares. In G time, we have an anomoly, Kid Q, and his hiding in plain sight - in the LSH, makes sense, as does his absence for all those years while he was in hiding.
I liked how the Brande/protean rights images from TT time were paralleled by his meetind with the seven intelligent Proteans in G time. With most Proteans unintelligent, there would have been no Protean rights movement, thus McCauley was spying on Brande for reasons other than worrying about if his former pet might rat him out.
Posted by Wonder Yellow on :
I ask ya, where in the world do people get the idea that Legion history is complicated?
heh heh
I really did like that whole run of her as a major bad guy. Glorith: The Time Trapper was a pretty sexy villainess.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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![[Star Boy]](graemlins/StarBoy.gif)
After the Adventure era stories, v4 is probably my favorite era. Now I know why! This thread has tied up some TMK loose threads for me and definitely deserves to be bumped. And, may I say, that EDE is a sprockin' Brainiac when it comes to Legion lore! Eyth? Stig Ah Plaza? Alisia? Jillikers! ![[Element Lad]](graemlins/ElementLad.gif)
I loved the seeder of worlds annual!