Who invented it? Is there an actual structure to the language (like Tolkein developed for his Elvish tongue)? I think the Legion Lost story was the first time I actually saw Legionnaires "speaking" in Interlac, when they confronted Shikari.
We've also seen a few instances of "Durlan" - was the first was in the now-classic Dr. Mayavale story? Durlan characters were also used in the 5YL story which explained R.J. Brande's origin, and we had a smattering of Durlan in the post-boot.
Have other languages been developed in the Legion stories?
Posted by Greybird on :
Pointless erudition alert (how do I remember all this? {g}), mostly from a love of typography ...
They've often made the storytelling point, in Legion descriptive fiction (such as the "Who's Who" series), that Interlac is a "language." All it's ever actually been, though, is an alphabet, created by Keith Giffen, and first fully appearing in a table in "LSH" v2 n311. He did it to make display type on spacecraft, placards, readouts, and the like look consistent.
All dialogue was in English, or whatever language was used for foreign editions, in the preboot. Displays were transliterated ("translated" applies to languages) from English into Interlac letters. It's only been in the postboot that dialogue has occasionally appeared in Interlac letters.
Giffen is no Tolkien, to say the least, and certainly isn't a linguist or an orthographer (the shapes of letters and how they match sounds). He simply invented what he saw as a plausible futuristic letter shape to correspond with each of the 26 in English. And numerals, on what I'd call a strange progression, for the 10 Arabic numerals. No more complex than Ralphie's Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring (rent "A Christmas Story" this Winter, if you haven't seen it yet).
Giffen put a lot of weirdness into Interlac. It's not just my opinion, either! This was concocted before the rise of PCs and font-creation utilities, so it had to be laboriously hand-lettered. Not every artist liked it. One computer readout appearing next to Dream Girl in "LSH" v3 n17, inked by Mahlstedt, transliterates as: "Keith -- I hate Interlac! Larry".
A stab at handwritten Interlac appears in "LSH" v3 Annual 1 ("Who Shot Laurel Kent?"), but it really isn't meant for handwriting -- as, I believe, Paul Levitz once said in a lettercolumn.
[ August 26, 2003, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: Greybird ]
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
You can always rely on Grey for a detailed answer. Even if you can't understand half of what he says.
You know who you should ask, Legion-wise, about languages? Kandru Boltax. Anyone remember him?
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Is Kandru Boltax a message board person (name sounds "Legionish"), a character or a real person?
And thank you Grey, for the info. I didn't know what orthography was - that would be interesting reading. Buy why say erudition is pointless? I ain't one-tenth as erudite as I'd like to be.
Too bad Interlac wasn't developed as a real language right from the start. Maybe it could be reverse-engineered, somehow. I expect Klingon was more foresightfully prepared, since people actually give courses in it.
Apart from hieroglyphics, Interlac must then be the only language which had a written form first, or only. Russian didn't get written until fairly well along, so I was told. The same would go for native languages (in Canada, maybe not other aboriginal peoples). Don't know about other contemporary languages.
Posted by Greybird on :
Why pointless? Because, as Scott says, you can't understand half of what I say. {rueful smile} The other half is to deliberately get everyone upset, as I've often been told ... *sigh*
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
C'mon Grey. We all love you.
FC, Kandru Boltax is a character. He was President of Earth who was kidnapped and impersonated by Universo. He's from ADVENTURE COMICS #359. He was replaced by Colossal Boy's mom, Marte Allon. Posted by Omni Craig on :
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad: You know who you should ask, Legion-wise, about languages? Kandru Boltax. Anyone remember him?
Oh!! Oh!! Pick me!! Pick me!! (hand flailing about in the air). I know Mr. Lad, I know!!
And aren't you the clever one? I knew who he was, but didn't get why you asked until I researched his background. How the hell did you know that off the top of your head? There's a Legion Trivia question right there!
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
I should have known that! Shame on me.
And I did understand all of what you said, Greybird. But remember: cats don't like rue (pointless herbalism).
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: Why pointless? Because, as Scott says, you can't understand half of what I say. {rueful smile} The other half is to deliberately get everyone upset, as I've often been told ... *sigh*
It was meant in jest Grey. Maybe a bad one but jest none the less. Plus anytime you post I can be assured there is something I'll learn, Legion related or other. Your post had one of each. I had no idea there was a different word other than translation when it come to non-language translations. Plus I had never heard about the little in joke Mahlstedt put in. Little things like that make me want to dig through my back issues to see what else I missed back then.
So, no hard feelings? Friends? Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Omni Craig:
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad: You know who you should ask, Legion-wise, about languages? Kandru Boltax. Anyone remember him?
Oh!! Oh!! Pick me!! Pick me!! (hand flailing about in the air). I know Mr. Lad, I know!!
And aren't you the clever one? I knew who he was, but didn't get why you asked until I researched his background. How the hell did you know that off the top of your head? There's a Legion Trivia question right there!
It was a connection I always made to the topic at hand. Helped me remember the character. Maybe I should bring it up next time I get a chance to in the trivia thread. But someone may guess it here (besides yourself) before then.
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
Of course, Interlac was never designed to be an actual languange, but rathter a sort of DC No-Prize answer to the oft-asked lettercol question, "Why do all these alien species speak English?"
One could look at it as, "Oh, um... actually they are all speaking Interlac, the language of the 30th century, and we, your kindly editors, are translating it for you."
However, as telepathic earplugs were introduced around the same time, I always took it, as a kid, that the characters were all speaking their native languages and the plugs translated it into what the listener, and also the reader, could understand. This percieved, though technically non-existatant language was called Interlac, or Inter Language Communication.
Of course, some words, or concepts, do not translate. Think the Eskimo's 126 words for snow vs. our 1. Hence Shikari's strange lingusitic aberations.
Posted by Varalent on :
Wasn't Boltax a linguist and translator prior to his election as President?
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Varalent: Wasn't Boltax a linguist and translator prior to his election as President?
Posted by Star Boy on :
I thought the "Eskimos have XXX words for snow" was a myth. Isn't Eskimo a polysynthetic language (ie. word are run together to make a new word - ie the word for white snow would be whitesnow), with as many variations on each word as there are appropriate adjectives?
Or maybe I dreamt the whole thing???
PS Wow... How off-topic am I! Posted by Greybird on :
No hard feelings, amigos mios. Thanks for your kind words. I often react too much to such things, I know. I should also see the likelihood of others being Too Little Caffeine Man (Woman), as I've been. ... I'm not gonna forgive those rue-hating cats, though {g}
I know I've had a great deal stretched in terms of my own awareness, from DCMB Classic days to right here at LW and elsewhere. In just the last day, I posted my current Windows desktop (see the Off-Topic forum thread), which shows some lovely comics art I wouldn't have found without Shady telling me about "Sojourn" ... and, say, where IS Shady anyway?
Edit: I just realized that an Interlac alphabet ought to be made available somewhere on the first page of this thread. The Great Spirit knoweth I've looked for my own copy often enough!
[ August 27, 2003, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Greybird ]
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: ... and, say, where IS Shady anyway?
Yeah! She signed up on August 4th, but has yet to post. I hope everything is okay with her. Now, I'm worried.
Posted by Thriftshop Debutante on :
Let's get Cecil Adams to put in his two bits.
What are the nine Eskimo words for snow? 16-Feb-1979
Dear Cecil:
In view of the blizzards we frequently have here in the Great White Midwest, how about a vocabulary lesson? I've heard the Eskimos have nine words for snow. What are they? --Karen, Chicago
Dear Karen:
I've got a lot more than nine words for snow, and I don't even need to resort to Eskimo. This is because I have a powerful descriptive vocabulary.
However, if we must confine ourselves to Eskimo talk, I can still come up with quite a few terms, as long as you will let me throw in some words for ice too: kaniktshaq, snow; qanik, falling snow; anijo, snow on the ground; hiko (tsiko in some dialects), ice; tsikut, large broken up masses of ice; hikuliaq, thin ice; quahak, new ice without snow; kanut, new ice with snow; pugtaq, drift ice; peqalujaq, old ice; manelaq, pack ice; ivuneq, high pack ice; maneraq, smooth ice; akuvijarjuak, thin ice on the sea; kuhugaq, icicle; nilak, fresh water ice; and tugartaq, firm winter ice.
If we wish to include peripheral items we may speak of iglo, snow house (igloo); haviujaq, snow knife; puatlrit, snow shovel; uvkuag, block of snow for closing the door of a snow hut. I imagine after-dinner chats in Eskimoland must get a bit monotonous after a while, considering the restricted range of subject matter. Fortunately, they have about 20 words for trout to liven things up with.
Most of the preceding words are from the dialect of the Umingmaktormiut, a tribe living in the eastern part of arctic America. Since the necessary diacritical marks are not available, the spellings are a little on the approximate side. However, Eskimos are not such hot spellers anyway.
The problem with trying to pin down exactly how many Eskimo words there for snow and/or ice--or for anything, for that matter-- is that Eskimo is what is called a "polysynthetic" language, which means you sort of make up words as you go along, by connecting various particles to your basic root word. For example, we may add the suffix -tluk, bad, to kaniktshaq, snow, and come up with kaniktshartluk, bad snow.
By means of this system we may manufacture words that would fracture the jaw of an elk. To illustrate I offer the word takusariartorumagaluarnerpa, a chewy mouthful signifying: "Do you think he really intends to go look after it?" It takes nerve to flog your way through a word of this magnitude. That's why Eskimos are so laconic--they are conserving their strength for their next foray into their godawful grammar.
In my spare time I have been attempting to construct an Eskimo sentence in my basement, such as will be suitable for the season. I have not get it perfected yet, but it is coming along pretty well, and with a little work it might pass for the genuine article. So far I have: kaniktshaq moritlkatsio atsuniartoq.
When completed, this sentence will proclaim: "Look at all this freaking snow." At present it means: "Observe the snow. It fornicates." This is not poetic, but it is serviceable, and I intend to employ it at the next opportunity. Anyone who feels it would alleviate his or her tension is invited to do likewise. Should it be felt that this is too burdensome a load of verbiage to be hauling around all the time, one may avail oneself of the timeless Eskimo interjection anaq, shit. This is appropriate to a wide variety of situations.
--CECIL ADAMS
Are there nine Eskimo words for snow (revisited)? 02-Feb-2001
Dear Cecil:
Just read the column on your Web site about the nine Eskimo words for snow, in which you encourage the idea that Eskimos have an unusually large number of terms for snow and ice. You'd better read the title essay in Geoffrey Pullum's book The Great Eskimo Vocabulary Hoax (1991). --Stephanie Short, Lake Placid, New York
Dear Cecil:
I myself am a Koniag Eskimo and was inflamed to see your ignorant, rude, racist, and idiotic statements about a different race than yours posted on a Web site where people ask questions and want simply the answers, not to read a bunch of redneck crap from some ignorant person who doesn't take the time . . . --Marie G., via the Internet
Cecil replies:
Ah, jeez, Marie. Does this mean our date is off?
I confess that in my column on Eskimo words for snow I was--I know this will shatter the image many of you have of me--screwing around. I did not, for example, have a factual basis for the ignorant, rude, etc., statement that "Eskimos are not such hot spellers." On the evidence of Marie's letter their spelling is OK; it's their English composition skills that blow. (Different from. "Simply want answers," not "want simply the answers." Delete "to read." Divide run-on sentence.) Also, I cannot honestly state that Eskimos are laconic because "they're conserving their strength for their next foray into their godawful grammar." Apparently they can run off at the mouth just like anybody else.
Turning to Stephanie's point, I did not squarely address the question of whether the Eskimo/Inuit have an unusually large number of terms for snow or whether this tells us anything useful about the Eskimo worldview, the interdependence of language and cognition, or anything else. Geoffrey Pullum rectifies this omission in the essay cited, claiming that "the truth is that the Eskimos do not have lots of different words for snow" (his emphasis). In the course of this he lumps your columnist in with such tawdry enterprises as the New York Times for having collectively perpetuated popular ignorance on the topic.
Geoff and I need to have a little talk about this. Granted, the Times, under the incredible deadline pressure that editorial writers face, once declared that Eskimos have a hundred words for snow, which is not true in any meaningful sense. I, on the other hand, cited a couple dozen terms for snow, ice, and related subjects that I found in an Eskimo dictionary. I also pointed out that Eskimo languages are "polysynthetic," meaning one constructs new words on the fly by adding morphemes (of which there are hundreds) to a root; this makes it impossible to state definitively how many Eskimo words there are for anything. Geoff, having asked around, avows that there are maybe a dozen independent Eskimo roots for snow, which to my mind qualifies as "lots" and is certainly comparable to the numbers I was talking about in my column. (On further investigation, it turns out there are at least 15 roots; see list.) So my question to Geoff is: Where do you figure I screwed up?
Enough of this palaver. The facts appear to be as follows:
(1) Eskimo languages do indeed have a lot of words for snow.
(2) So does English. Consider snow, slush, sleet, hail, powder, hard pack, blizzard, flurries, flake, dusting, crust, avalanche, drift, frost, and iceberg, to name but a few. Admittedly I've included words that refer to ice rather than snow in the usual sense, but that's just my point. Once we realize that the thing being described is frozen water, it's obvious that English has terms out the wazoo.
(3) The allegedly large number of words Eskimos have for snow is widely adduced as evidence for what linguists call the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, the gist of which is that language reflects a culture's preoccupations and in so doing imposes certain patterns of thought on individual members of that culture.
(4) Whatever may be said for the S-W hypothesis in general, the notion that it's supported by Eskimo words for snow is bunk.
(5) Any group of people working in a particular field or sharing a certain set of circumstances will develop a specialized vocabulary for describing their everyday experiences, and no doubt this tells us something about the shared mental constructs by which they comprehend the world. But you know what (and here I concur with Geoffrey Pullum)?
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