What was the deal with this story?
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
TMK liked to turn things a bit upside down. I'm a fan of those stories (even the Pro Fem story, which a lot of people disliked), and I think they did a great job.
There was an earlier story with the "Grandin Gender Reversal Germ" which I haven't read - so maybe they were alluding to, or expanding on that concept.
I didn't find the idea of Pro Fem bizarre or wierd at all - if people go through physical surgery today to change genders, surely there will be a (simpler) drug in the future to accomplish this. I did think it was a bit of a downer that Shvaughn/Sean had to hide the fact, or lie about it to Jan - but that's not unrealistic and - let's face it - it's their business.
Was it a way to make Jan gay without actually doing so, not taking that step with an acutal Legionnaire but only a supporting character? No idea... but ultimately, to me, it was a real love story - although couched in a campy cover - because no matter who or what Shvaughn was, she and Jan loved one another, and stood by one another. It seemed to be left unsaid in later issues whether they continued as friends only or developed a new sexual relationship.
It was interesting (to me anyways) that the very masculine Circe was shown as a young girl in a dress, in her final panel with Dirk, after she shot herself. I don't know exactly what that was saying but I found it sad and charming, she just looked like a happy, innocent girl.
Posted by Greybird on :
What always bothered me most about that episode was how it destroyed Shvaughn as a character. She (I refuse to acknowledge TMK's "chemical" butchery) was made into a three-decades-long transsexual stalker, who based her entire adult life and career on deliberate lies.
That bit of fanboyish creative abuse is worse than any physical mutilation that was depicted -- and TMK was running amuck with those. Even worse than that which "Bounty" did to Dawnstar, as I see it. (Though that's the only one I'll put as being worse.) Because openly gutting a lifetime's integrity is a far more profound trashing of a character than even tearing off her wings off-"stage."
Posted by Thriftshop Debutante on :
Lydda?
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
quote:Originally posted by Thriftshop Debutante: Lydda?
Lydda's not here right now. She's out getting her beehive restored, something which TMK neglected to do.
Posted by Thriftshop Debutante on :
"Groupie"?
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: What always bothered me most about that episode was how it destroyed Shvaughn as a character. She (I refuse to acknowledge TMK's "chemical" butchery) was made into a three-decades-long transsexual stalker, who based her entire adult life and career on deliberate lies.
That's one way of looking at it, but not mine... people take all sorts of paths and make decisions in pursuit of "dreams" or objectives, that, in retrospect, were not wise, honest or even that well thought out. Did Sean have a crush on Jan and become a female to "pursue" him - or was he inclined to be a female in any event? Or was he confused, as an adolescent, about what and who he wanted to be? It was left a bit unresolved, to say the least - we didn't really get any further insight into Sean's thinking.
To me, this is all quite realistic, emotions/motivation-wise - even to the extent that things are left unsaid, confused and/or unresolved. That's what happens a lot.
I know you were horrified and dismayed by what TMK did to Dawnstar - but, there again, I see this as very realistic - in the sense that the legionnaires, in or out of the Legion, were involved in dangerous situations. It's unlikely that they would escape grievous harm. We had a lost arm, a few deaths, a torture pre-TMK - they then added to the list. I would think the legionnaires would be targets for humiliating and hideous attacks by their enemies - which is one aspect of what happened to Dawnstar. Now if they had left it at that, instead of adding the confusing Bounty spirit or whatever it was, it could have been a very moving story, with the loss of her wings and her continuing to fight the good fight.
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer:
quote:Originally posted by Thriftshop Debutante: Lydda?
Lydda's not here right now. She's out getting her beehive restored, something which TMK neglected to do.
They never did get that character.....
Posted by Tromium Crystal on :
In principle, I have nothing against the idea of Shvaughn/Sean changing genders, nor does it matter to me in the least if Jan is gay, straight or asexual -- his sexual orientation being the least compelling aspect of his personality. What I DO mind is that TPTB abandoned the Legion to two inexperienced writers who were entirely bereft of creative talent and literary imagination, and permitted them to overturn 30 years of characterization and back-story for the sake of juvenile sensationalism.
The Bierbaum's maltreatment of Shvaughn, Dawnstar, Mon-El, Sun Boy, Garth and other beloved characters was an insult to Legion fandom, and I thank gods that their opus was blown to smithereens by Zero Hour. Now I can once again enjoy Shvaughn as the tough, intelligent and compassionate person I always admired rather than the weepy, whiney, deceitful and co-dependent twit who made my stomach heave. As for Jan, I'd rather see him go insane than subject himself to such a ridiculous and fraudulent relationship.
Posted by Stu on :
What annoyed me about that storyline was the fact that the ProFem seemed like such a blatant plot device.
These days, changing one's gender is a fairly involved process, and there are quite a few people doing it. You'd think that if it was even simpler to change gender in the future (though there were a few complications from using ProFem, I think), many more people would be doing it all the time -- just for fun, variety, etc. -- and we would have seen examples of such in the Legion continuity already.
Instead, the Sean/Shvaughn story seemed completely novel and out-of-the-blue.
Posted by Greybird on :
One such instance, FC, of physical or spiritual mutilation would have been shocking, but could have been reasonable. Constant instances, though, turned the Legion setting into what it had never been: an almost malevolent universe.
As for showing something "moving" about Dawnstar having her wings torn off, I'm afraid you can't really use what they didn't do to justify what they did do. What TMK actually did was have that occur offstage, in the convenient "gap," as a consequence of the double Mordruverse reboot. And they then used its revelation, to borrow Stu's phrase, as a cheap plot device when it suited them: a shock-value moment following a gimmicked-up "battle" with Sade.
If her mutilation had been shown to happen in heroic battle or for high principle -- or Blok's pointless death, or Sun Boy's betrayal, or other character wastage -- it might have had some resonance in the plots, or been honest in evoking the readers' emotions. TMK didn't bother to do that. As others have said, they lacked the skill. Most fanboyish fanficcers do.
[Edit: Not Enough Caffeine Man]
[ August 23, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Greybird ]
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Schvaun/Sean even for the longevity of the character, was still the second stage character actor. This story is the reason they exist. They are fodder to experimentation. Whether the change was made to investigate Jan's sexuality, Jan's spirituality, or Schvauns, is I suppose totally in the mind of the writers (have they published their reasoning) or up to reader speculation which is great. It was to me weird, but within the creative leeway I'm willing to give.
The Dawnstar/Bounty story is different to me. This is a major character. Much like Coz' disfigurement, this one deserved "camera" time. Whether the ultimate result would be character mental adjustment as with Cos or physical reenstatement as with Lightning Lad, I would wish that this story had been played out in the open.
Posted by queer legion on :
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: Did Sean have a crush on Jan and become a female to "pursue" him - or was he inclined to be a female in any event? Or was he confused, as an adolescent, about what and who he wanted to be?
That's what I found strange.
I don't think Sean was transsexual, he was just a confused gay guy in "love" with Jan.
I just don't get how the "I need to change my sex just to have sex with another man" plot line works 1000 years in the future (or today).
What we got in that story only made the issue more confusing.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Lotsa TMK bashing here, but I'm with Fat Cramer.
Tom and Mary were certainly NOT without skill. Read their HECKLER or THUNDER AGENTS work. They gave a buttload of characters distinct personalities in their few LEGIONNAIRES issues. And I thoroughly enjoyed their LEGION issues without Keith Giffen. In fact, I think I liked those issues (LSH #2 39-50) MORE.
As for the story in question-- the profem tale-- I don't really remember super-loving OR super-hating it. I do recall that it surprised me.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
I thought the use of ProFem was rather retconniving and unnecessary. If Jan is gay, have him find a male partner/lover, don't tweak Shvaughn out like that. It make him/her look weak and pathetic, and yes, like a stalker or something, as noted above. It was purely done for shock value, and I really didn't care for it.
And why did people think Jan was gay? Basically, because he wore pink and rarely ever had a girlfriend, let alone a steady girl back in the Adventure days! Hmmm, although in high school, I rarely dated and people later told me they thought I might be gay. Wouldn't you know, it turned out I was just painfully shy. Whodathunkit? (Oh, and I didn't wear pink in high school, so that was totally different)...
Ultimately the only interesting part of the story was when Jan chided Sean with a comment like: "What makes you think your gender has anything to do with why I love you?" That was well handled. The fact that it was Shvaughn, was poop.
Posted by Caleb on :
The whole Sean/Shvaughn thing was a shock to me and I thought the pro-fem thing was kind of... But it didn't prove that Jan was gay. It proved that gender was unimportant to him. What mattered was a person's soul, not their genetalia. I thought that fit in with Jan's personality perfectly.
On the other hand, by creating Bounty, TMK took a character that I didn't care for at all and made her interesting to me. I liked Bounty much more than I ever did Dawny and I liked it when Dawny made it back to the team. I think, given a little more time to be shown and developed, she would have come through as a stronger, yet humbled and more mature, character. I liked the wings, but their loss didn't rock my world.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
Oh, and for the record, I like much of the TMK era. This Sean/Shvaughn thing, the Proty/Garth thing, and the Dawny mutilation were the negatives for sure!!
Posted by MLLASH on :
And the scene where Lydda heads to the nursery where all the Legion-babies are sleeping and dims the lights in order to protect them from the invaders was a wonderful handling of her character that I've never forgotten.
Posted by Varalent on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: And the scene where Lydda heads to the nursery where all the Legion-babies are sleeping and dims the lights in order to protect them from the invaders was a wonderful handling of her character that I've never forgotten.
You right about that, Lash. Although this era is my least favorite, that was one of the best uses of Lydda ever.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I loved this story- particularly as it fit with the later #50. However, I've always seen why people who were/are fond of Shvaughn Erin would be pissed off by it.
Still, I think it stands on its own merits. In fact, I think it's the most fully realized depiction of the adult/teenage SW6 Legionnare counterparts. There was the later issue that showed all (or most) of them meeting-- but each pair only got a panel or two. The Ultra Boys and Violets stood out here, but none of them got the attention that the Jans got in this issue.
I think I love this issue mostly for the way young Jan is characterized-- and for the hints about adult Jan... hints I'd been convinced of before I ever encountered any sort of Legion fandom suspicions.
Adult Jan's telling of the 'trommite cub' story to distract Shvaughn while SW6 Jan dealt with the shock of killing several Dominators was beautifully presented, I thought. There's a sadness underlying the dialogue and art that I find almost palpable.
As for Sean/Shvaughn and the profem-- in the text piece at the end, Sean infers that the use of profem (and it's 'opposite' promen) was a sort of underground counter-culture kind of thing popular in a specific group (the Freebie commune of Tupelo!?- started by Matthew Lesko, perhaps:)), in which Sean found himself after leaving home.
The way Sean wrote about Duar, his homeworld, made it seem a bastion of intolerance in the 30th century. At least Sean's immediate family and community were described that way.
I always got the impression that Sean would've taken the profem even if he'd never heard the words 'Element Lad'- in fact, he did start taking it before he could've had any reasonable expectation of meeting Jan Arrah.
Which isn't to say that it still doesn't make Shvaughn stalkerish- but no more so than Night Girl.
I agree that this isn't a perfect continuation of the lady cop featured in the Levitz years- but after all, this was a rebooted Legion before there was an 'official' reboot. Everything from the moment Mon-el punched the Time Trapper on was a whole new continuity. After all, I never read any Adventure stories featuring Kid Quantum or Laurel Gand, did you?
I don't believe *that* Shvaughn Erin would've come from such a sad, demeaning background (and I don't mean the gender-switch) any more than I think that the Levitz Sun Boy would've become such a scum.
TN
Posted by MLLASH on :
I bow before your beautifully stated words as always, Todd!
Thanks for so elequently defending a much-maligned Giffen/Bierbaum tale.
Posted by Sonnie Boy on :
What he said.
Posted by Greybird on :
I'm sorry, Lash LaRue, but I do have to demur from your use of "maligned" here. That word usually goes beyond evidence that's brought to bear, to suggest dishonest or improper motives on the part of those who make criticisms -- at least, to me.
It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that TMK didn't have the skills to carry out stories based upon 30 years of Legion continuity. (Remember, the after-Mordruverse, before-Zero-Hour stories were asserted to be part of that continuity.) Destruction of what came before, in serial storytelling, is always a far easier narrative task than preservation of or building upon what came before.
TMK may have been adept at constant destruction, but it's quite reasonable to step back further and contend that this injured or ashcanned much of the Legion's legacy, especially as to many character nuances. That's what happened with Shvaughn Erin and ProFem -- or, at least, many of us have been saying this in some manner or another.
To say that making this point ends up "maligning" TMK's work is to suggest -- to me -- that it isn't reasonable to even make such critiques in the first place, or that it's done out of improper motives, or both.
This may be my rhetorical hair-splitting -- often my foible, I admit -- but I don't see how I and others frame this as being any less worthy of discussion than how Todd does such framing above. I wanted to rule this possibility out.
Posted by Sonnie Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: I'm sorry, Lash LaRue, but I do have to demur from your use of "maligned" here. That word usually goes beyond evidence that's brought to bear, to suggest dishonest or improper motives on the part of those who make criticisms -- at least, to me.
It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that TMK didn't have the skills to carry out stories based upon 30 years of Legion continuity. (Remember, the after-Mordruverse, before-Zero-Hour stories were asserted to be part of that continuity.) Destruction of what came before, in serial storytelling, is always a far easier narrative task than preservation of or building upon what came before.
TMK may have been adept at constant destruction, but it's quite reasonable to step back further and contend that this injured or ashcanned much of the Legion's legacy, especially as to many character nuances. That's what happened with Shvaughn Erin and ProFem -- or, at least, many of us have been saying this in some manner or another.
To say that making this point ends up "maligning" TMK's work is to suggest -- to me -- that it isn't reasonable to even make such critiques in the first place, or that it's done out of improper motives, or both.
This may be my rhetorical hair-splitting -- often my foible, I admit -- but I don't see how I and others frame this as being any less worthy of discussion than how Todd does such framing above. I wanted to rule this possibility out.
that's your opinion mr Bird, and like arseholes everyone has one.
IMO opinion it was the best era because they trashed the history and somehow made the characters that were becoming parodies more human, vulnerable, believeable and interesting , but hey if you want 2 dimensional teenage fantasties carry on ignoring that era... it's all a moot point now anyway isn't it?
Gawd, I miss character driven plot lines. Has Rokk or Vi EVER been more interesting than when they were in Giffen's hands? No, I didn't think so either....
Posted by Greybird on :
{ that's your opinion mr Bird, and like arseholes everyone has one. }
You know, S.B., I don't make such content-less swipes against anyone. I bring up some genuine point in response, at least, even if it's only stressing some point of discussion mores. (As it was here.) Why did you even bother to quote what I wrote?
Please call me Grey or Steve, by the way. "Mister," here, is condescending.
{[...] but hey if you want 2 dimensional teenage fantasies carry on ignoring that era ... }
I could fully respond about how I don't at all "ignore" that era -- rather, I know a great deal about it, and I detest it -- but making that distinction appears to be pointless. Whatever you may want here, it's not discussion.
Posted by Sonnie Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: Whatever you may want here, it's not discussion.
that'll be two of us then yeah?
oh and the Mr Bird comment wasn't meant to be snide, there's a banter that has developed amongst my friends were when we're "discussing" something that both sides feel strongly about we call each other Mr, or Ms, "Insert- Surname-Here", apologies for that, re-reading it it did look condescending didn't it? oops! not meant I assure you.... Posted by MLLASH on :
Now, Grey! You're putting far too much importance to my snappy alliterative patter!
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I think 'much-maligned' is a pretty apt description of how this story is viewed- and written about in reader comments. Often quite dismissively, I think.
There's more to this story than the profem plot surprise-- no one ever comments on that.
Frankly, the responses have always surprised me, a bit-- though not that it puts me in a minority (of those who like this issue), as that's something that recurs for me again and again... sigh.
It's distressing to me that those who would be in 'my' minority are dwindling more and more. I'm sure those that identify themselves as 'Element Lad' fans would be as split about the events of this issue as is the 'wider' readership... but fewer and fewer of us are around.
No matter what the various new surveys reveal, Element Lad was the character most often voted leader or deputy leader by the fans. I'm afraid most of the folks that voted for him in those reader elections are long gone-- some chased off by the lackluster way Jan was presented in the reboot, others by the reboot itself, and more by the events of LEGION LOST.
The optimistic, hopeful part of me is encouraged by recent preview images and solicits... but, frankly, the older, wiser me realizes the boom might be at the lowering point.
Hmmm- sorry for the ramble...
TN
Posted by Greybird on :
[MLLASH] { Now, Grey! You're putting far too much importance to my snappy alliterative patter! }
You're probably right. I wouldn't have worked well as a lyrics collaborator with, say, Cole Porter. {g}
Still, either supporting or criticizing TMK seems to bring out strong emotions, as Fat Cramer brings up in another thread -- so it's hard to assume that words about them are chosen without their being well-aimed. (Or that they're simply for alliteration.) Well, better those poles of interest than not being passionate about the era at all, I would say.
Posted by Greybird on :
[Mystery Lad] {[...] There's more to this story than the profem plot surprise -- no one ever comments on that. }
Yes, there is -- but the ProFem concoction and what it says about Shvaughn create the plot device, and an utterly faulty one, on which the story turns. By analogy, we wouldn't say that Christopher Reeve's riding accident meant that his central nervous system was invalidated ... but he remains no less incapacitated.
{[...] not that it puts me in a minority (of those who like this issue), as that's something that recurs for me again and again ... sigh. }
Why should this depress you, particularly? As long as you are settled in your own mind about it? And as long as others, and you, remain persuadable about such matters?
Having others who agree with you shouldn't be a prime mover. I'd prefer that many others agree with me about the value and virtues of Dawnstar (and a good number do), but that doesn't affect how I see her as a character and artistic icon.
{[...] I'm sure those that identify themselves as 'Element Lad' fans would be as split about the events of this issue as is the 'wider' readership ... but fewer and fewer of us are around. }
I'm not sure I see a basis for your melancholy. If anything, I see more self-identified Jan Arrah fans among Legion net.partisans every year.
Where this has been diluted recently is, as you say, with DnA having turned him into a cosmic genocidal maniac. Many have shied away from this, including you. Perhaps some have also felt they thus can't or shouldn't care about Jan as such any more, either. I doubt that they were strong partisans of him in the first place.
In any event, Jan appears to be positioned for near-term resurrection as something else.
Posted by deanlegion on :
I was shocked to learn that Shvaughn was actually a man, but I quickly recovered from that shock and accepted it. I'm sure that was because of how gracefully Jan handled the news. That said, I would have preferred it if the whole story never happened, but, like real life, things like this do happen and dealing with it is required. I haven't read the story in a long time, so maybe it's time for a refresher. I've long been bothered by the speculation about Jan's sexuality. Okay, he wore pink, he was a "bachelor," he ditched that girl he was dating when a Legion emergency popped up. These are all lame bits of evidence. Jan's relationship with Shvaughn was clearly and obviously a sign that he was heterosexual. I did feel like the ProFem story was a way to bring back the old "Jan's Gay" idea, that's why it shocked me. I'd thought that matter was all settled. Again, Jan came through as being very refined and self assured. At least we have that, because the guy really was yanked around on this issue too much. I do wish we could have a current Jan Arrah, as evolved and interesting as the preboot.
I have an opinion on the Bounty storyline too! Although I found it very disturbing, it was a very interesting idea. With all her speed and ability, Dawnstar was unable to prevent herself from being possessed, and altered. This is frightening right now! Bounty used her body to get by for a while, and then was forced to move on, leaving Dawny to recuperate. When she was sick in bed, I felt deep sympathy for her. In fact, aside from her longing for physical love, there was little to sypathize over for her, before. This vulnerability was new. I recall cheering for her to get up, GET UP! when the zombies came to her med bed. Then, she went home and went through that ceremony with her family and emerged healed, though wingless. She wanted to talk with Drake, but never really got a chance. Then, Zero Hour happened....
I found her tale very moving and a bit sad, but it did seem like she was at peace at the end.
Now, let's not get me started on PROTY/GARTH!!!!! Posted by joe mondo on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Lad: I think 'much-maligned' is a pretty apt description of how this story is viewed- and written about in reader comments. Often quite dismissively, I think.
Indeed.
It wasn't my favorite TMK story. In fact it was probably my least favorite.
I didn't see it as something organic to the Jan/Shvaugn storyline, and I didn't see any reason for the story - that is, a mystery solved or a goofy element better explained, or an intersting revelation.
The Proty/Garth story on the other hand worked for me because it did those things - it explained the resurrection story, explained the overall shift in Garth's personality, and it revealed a real twist in Imra's character.
That said, I didn't hate it. I like it a lot better than the blah Jan of the reboot.
Posted by Shadow Kid on :
I liked it but only in the way that I like hokey silver age stories.
What I didn't like was the really forced Sean/Jan relationship of sorts that followed. How could a writing team who got Vi and Ayla so right get Sean and Jan so wrong?
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: Why should this depress you, particularly? As long as you are settled in your own mind about it? And as long as others, and you, remain persuadable about such matters?
I'm not depressed-- but finding myself in a minority-within-a-minority has been *way* too much of a constant in my life thus far. It's wearing.
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: I'm not sure I see a basis for your melancholy. If anything, I see more self-identified Jan Arrah fans among Legion net.partisans every year.
Really? Where? Preboot, Jan would've been in the top three of any favorites poll conducted- easily. Since the reboot-- not even close. Admittedly that's a smallish representation, but it's indicitave of *something*.
I *do* see lots of folk who are fond of preboot Jan. I'll stand by my impression that the pool of those that counted Jan Arrah as their favorite has shrunk since the Levitz days- in proportion to the overall shrinkage of the readership.
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: Where this has been diluted recently is, as you say, with DnA having turned him into a cosmic genocidal maniac. Many have shied away from this, including you. Perhaps some have also felt they thus can't or shouldn't care about Jan as such any more, either. I doubt that they were strong partisans of him in the first place.
1. LOTS of readers quit the Legion with Zero Hour, and still won't read the rebooted Legion.
2. Though they still might be readers, many more have expressed their dissatisfaction for the reboot Jan Arrah. Remember F.O.L? The slam-list they made of characters they wanted dead is practically a blueprint for DNA's plotting. Garth- check. Jan- check. Monstress- check. Zoe- transformed. Ferro- Steepled. Karate Kid- steepled.
3. LEGION LOST. Though I've seen posts from returning readers who skipped the reboot until DNA, I think those that were Jan fans probably don't make up a significant portion of their number.
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: In any event, Jan appears to be positioned for near-term resurrection as something else.
Uh-huh. I'll believe it when I read it.
TN
Posted by queer legion on :
Eeep! I hope this is good-hearted discussion. (I really didn't mean to start a fight!)
I found the "Profem" story a bit hard to take. Though after considering Mystery Lad's comment's about Sean taking Profem before meeting Jan, I find it more plausible.
I DID like the "Trommite Cub" story, and the overall story did have a great deal of pathos to it.
If I can swallow post-boot racist Daxamites in the 30st century, I can handle pre-boot homophobic Duarians (Duarimites? Duarozians?)
I suppose the TMK era will alwasy evoke strong emotion. There were parts I loved and parts I hated. Regardless those tales will always be part of the Legion mythos (even with Zero Hour).
Peace and Love, and LLL.
Posted by MLLASH on :
QL, don't worry sweetie; most of us have 'known' one another for years here... we're not fighting, honest!
You just keep coming up with these good topics!
Posted by Caleb on :
Fighting among family is inevitable -and rarely ends in a really negative way.
I thought the Proty/Garth idea was inspired and I liked it. I don't understand the VERY strong feelings against it that I often hear.
[ August 25, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Caleb ]
Posted by deanlegion on :
Here I go....
There are several reasons why I dislike the Proty revelation. The first and worst is that he was just such a LIAR!!!! He took over Garth's body and pretended to be Garth and never told anyone, especially not Imra. He married her and had children with her, all the while, letting everyone think he was really Garth. He WASN'T GARTH, though!!!! He was Proty in Garth's body. It's as bad as Bounty being in Dawnstar's body. He must have figured that no one would figure it out, and they didn't. Which leads me to my next biggest complaint, Imra Ardeen, the most powerful telepath to come from Titan NEVER figured it out? Or did she, but never said anything? It's just a major black-out on her characterization to not have this addressed. I honestly think that Imra would FREAK if she knew how Proty had manipulated everyone's emotions when he did this. She'd feel SO betrayed and embarrassed. That's, of course, my opinion. Now, how 'bout the kids? Proty in Garth's body is the only father they've ever known, so they wouldn't care, deep down, emotionally, but what about on the surface? Their dad was Lightning Lad! A great hero, a Legion Founder. To learn that he's actually a Protean in that hero's body must be a shock and surely a disappointment. I'm sure the mean kids on the school yard would tease, "Your dad's a blob! Your dad's a blob!" Kids can be so cruel. We know xenophobia exists in the 31st.
The other Legionnaires would feel foolish, that they'd been deceived. Some would be more forgiving than others. What would Brainy think?What would Cham think? What would Yera think? What would Vi think? I think we know that Vi would be APPALLED! Especially after what happened to her. Which now leads me to asking what Ayla would think... Twins are supposed to be sort of in tune with each other, and I'd imagine Winathians even more so. When Garth died, I'm sure it threw Ayla off, but it does seem she'd know that it wasn't his soul in that body. She was more in touch with him. She said something like "I sorta knew on some level." Feh! Not good enough.
The public would probably have an outcry against the Proteans. They can't be trusted! They'll impersonate your loved ones! Talk about identity theft! The public wouldn't know who to trust in public office--politicians, police officers, Legionnaires. There'd be new screening technology to be sure that the sentient in question is not actually a Protean. This would spill over to Durlans. Same issues! Now all the work that good Durlans like Cham and Brande and even Yera have done, will be majorly set back!
The only positive thing I can say about this is that it was clever in that shocking way. There are just too many problems with it and it is the #1 main reason why I'm glad there was a reboot!
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
The Proty business was a bit odd in that Imra (supposedly) never discovered it...I always classified this as a deception and therefore not cool to do to other people - not to mention, could it have had some effect on the children? Not that they get morphing powers, but somehow their minds work differently? Seems like the right thing is to let Mom at least know what's going on....
I heard an interview with a couple, married with kids, and the husband decided he wanted to become a she - so now it's accomplished, and they're still together, it worked out ... but that got me thinking, what would I do with a similar revelation? After fainting from shock, I mean... I think you don't necessarily stop loving somebody because they've deceived you - especially if they've deceived themselves to some extent. Assuming there's nothing malicious involved (like mass murder). Of course, some people couldn't handle the deception - but often, people do, and stay together.
Just thinking about it with this thread, there was an underlying theme to the TMK stories that people were not what they appeared to be. Quite a few characters revealed twists that weren't apparent on the surface, or that had been consciously hidden for years. Dawnstar/Bounty, Celeste (hid her McCauley connection, didn't she?), Garth/Proty, Shvaugn/Sean, Laurel (repressed or hidden love for B5), Furball/Brin ....probably others I can't think of right now.
And all, except Dirk, found acceptance - though even Dirk was still accepted, cared about by his old Legion pals even if they disapproved of his actions. This, to me, is a powerful message about love and friendship, forgiveness and understanding.
Posted by Tromium Crystal on :
deanlegion, this is exactly what I mean about subverting character continuity and contradicting common sense. Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona. The near-omniscient Darkseid targeted him and his family as his personal victims but never sensed that Garth was someone other than he claimed to be. Garth had a nervous breakdown and still no Proty emerged, nor did his telepathic wife see anything alien when she entered his subconscious. Neither his sister nor his brother even suspected that something was amiss (despite the retcon dialog you quoted). Finally, never in the 30 years prior to this "revelation" had Garth ever done, said or thought anything that even remotely suggested that an inhuman mind had possessed his body.
In other words, the Bierbaums deliberately sabotaged the efforts of previous creators for shock value, turning heroes into liars in order to titillate jaded Legion fans with unexpected twists. They did not care about the characters we came to love and admire. There was nothing "clever" about it because it made not an iota of sense. And don't get me started on their equally absurd treatment of Sun Boy. Imo, the Bierbaums were a canker sore on Legion continuity. I agree with your assessment that the reboot, for all its problems, came not a moment too soon.
[ August 26, 2003, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Tromium Crystal ]
Posted by joe mondo on :
quote:Originally posted by deanlegion: Which leads me to my next biggest complaint, Imra Ardeen, the most powerful telepath to come from Titan NEVER figured it out? Or did she, but never said anything? It's just a major black-out on her characterization to not have this addressed. I honestly think that Imra would FREAK if she knew how Proty had manipulated everyone's emotions when he did this. She'd feel SO betrayed and embarrassed. That's, of course, my opinion. Now, how 'bout the kids? Proty in Garth's body is the only father they've ever known, so they wouldn't care, deep down, emotionally, but what about on the surface? Their dad was Lightning Lad! A great hero, a Legion Founder. To learn that he's actually a Protean in that hero's body must be a shock and surely a disappointment. I'm sure the mean kids on the school yard would tease, "Your dad's a blob! Your dad's a blob!" Kids can be so cruel. We know xenophobia exists in the 31st.
Ah - the very reasons I liked it.
There's a reason that in my Legion Movie Posters I used Far From Heaven as the TMK Garth as Proty story called Far From Antares: I thought it was a perfect parallel.
There are people with secrets in marriages, and there are people - wives let's say - who know these secrets but refuse to acknowledge them. How perfect, I thought, for Imra to be an uber-powerful psychic, but not acknowledge something that she clearly had to know right in her own house.
And that's more or less what I thought the point was: not that Imra didn't know, but that she didn't want to know. This was the hard-ass's achilles' heel - to mix anatomical metaphors.
Posted by Tromium Crystal on :
For all my vehemence on the subject, I must admit your poster was brilliant and VERY funny. Posted by Princess Crujectra on :
The Profem storyline is certainly not among my all-time favorite storylines, but it did have one profound effect on me: it was the first time that I was ever even remotely interested in the character of Shvaughn Erin. She really just never appealed to me in the past, and it wasn't until she became Sean that I really even cared whether she was in the book or not. She always just felt a little bland to me.
Consequently, it wasn't until TMK that I really cared anything for Dawnstar, either. She never appealed to me in the Levitz years... in fact, she kind of annoyed me. But in TMK I think I felt sorry for her, and was actually a little happy when she pulled herself around toward the end. I think if the series had continued I might even have grown to like her.
Posted by deanlegion on :
quote:Originally posted by joe mondo: QUOTE]Ah - the very reasons I liked it.
There's a reason that in my Legion Movie Posters I used Far From Heaven as the TMK Garth as Proty story called Far From Antares: I thought it was a perfect parallel.
There are people with secrets in marriages, and there are people - wives let's say - who know these secrets but refuse to acknowledge them. How perfect, I thought, for Imra to be an uber-powerful psychic, but not acknowledge something that she clearly had to know right in her own house.
And that's more or less what I thought the point was: not that Imra didn't know, but that she didn't want to know. This was the hard-ass's achilles' heel - to mix anatomical metaphors. [/QB]
Hmm... don't remember that poster. Was it posted at LSH-Pics? Anyway, I suppose another more general complaint I have about Proty/Garth is that the bombshell was just dropped and left there, and then, before any real consequences could be worked out, Zero Hour struck and it all got wiped out anyway. Despite the efforts to bring the Legion back into a recognizable unit before it's end, the last preboot Legion was mostly nothing like what most had come to love over 30 something years.
Posted by joe mondo on :
I posted this and a long list of others in the Outpost section.
It was thinking about the movie Far From Heaven that really made me think that the Garth as Proty thing was so much like a woman being married to a closeted gay man. Not in every way, certainly, but alike enoughin the way that people can livein denial, even supressing the thingsthey pretty much have to know.
Posted by deanlegion on :
Joe, I found your Legion Movies thread here at LegionWorld. Everytime I come here, I find something I hadn't seen before. The poster is terrific.
I totally see your point about a family member living in denial. In fact, that's precisely what I'd have liked to see explored if the story was able to go on. I've written/sketched out my own fanfic about Imra actually confronting the issue. In fact, I've considered several versions. In one she's very angry and leaves him and takes the kids to Quarrantine to all be together without Garth. In another, she allows a Titanian therapy to guide her mind into accepting the news (wouldn't that be nice today?). In another, she goes the route Fat Cramer suggests, where she takes the spiritual approach, emphasizing love and forgiveness. Obviously, I've though about this a lot and have tried to find ways to reconcile it. I've also taken the stance that Imra did indeed know it was Proty all along, and went with it, and kept the secret, but still found herself falling in love with him and accepting the marriage proposal. There was that story in, I think, #236, where they went to Titan to get help in figuring out if leaving the Legion was the right thing to do. I've told myself that that was when she was able to accept Proty as Garth.
I want to acknowledge Tromium Crystal's post about this, too, because the retcon issues brought up there were quite important.
[ August 26, 2003, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: deanlegion ]
Posted by deanlegion on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: deanlegion, this is exactly what I mean about subverting character continuity and contradicting common sense. Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona. The near-omniscient Darkseid targeted him and his family as his personal victims but never sensed that Garth was someone other than he claimed to be. Garth had a nervous breakdown and still no Proty emerged, nor did his telepathic wife see anything alien when she entered his subconscious. Neither his sister nor his brother even suspected that something was amiss (despite the retcon dialog you quoted). Finally, never in the 30 years prior to this "revelation" had Garth ever done, said or thought anything that even remotely suggested that an inhuman mind had possessed his body.
In other words, the Bierbaums deliberately sabotaged the efforts of previous creators for shock value, turning heroes into liars in order to titillate jaded Legion fans with unexpected twists. They did not care about the characters we came to love and admire. There was nothing "clever" about it because it made not an iota of sense. And don't get me started on their equally absurd treatment of Sun Boy. Imo, the Bierbaums were a canker sore on Legion continuity. I agree with your assessment that the reboot, for all its problems, came not a moment too soon.
You're right that it made no sense, and all the other evidence you've cited proves it. I guess I'm most willing to give on the Imra aspect. That she either knew and made peace with it, or so staunchly denied it that there was NO way he'd come right out and tell her. The most frustrating thing for me is to try and figure out a way to make it make sense, and I'm finding that impossible. Still, it's canon (Dean ducks and runs from the continuity patrol), so I accept it. Proty comes out a deceiving, lying sneak no matter how he managed to keep the secret all those years.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
My theory: It's been a while since I read the LL/Proty storyline (I don't delve back to my V4 issues very often), but could it be that Garth's personality was somehow revived and transferred into Proty? This would in effect make him still Garth but in a protoplasmic body. Thinking as Garth, he would be inclined to believe his form was human, thus would not think to change forms as Proty would. This would also "fool" Imra, as she would read him as her Garth as well. His electric powers would be mental based as well which allowed him to retain his powers upon revival (this would also link to the mental illness he had during his term as leader). Only later in life when the Validus Virus affected him would it be recognized (by himself included) what had actually happened. This would explain how Imra and Garth remained true to each other thru the years, and preserve the integrity of Proty as a self-sacrificing hero.
Posted by Tromium Crystal on :
Canon it may be, but as of 1994 Proty/Garth, Shvaughn/Sean and the other idiocies perpetrated by the Bierbuams are no more true than Clark Kent's identity as Superboy. It's just too bad we can't grant an exception to the Shooter and Levitz stories, and all the other wonderful things about the pre-boot Legion that should have survived the great rift of Zero Hour.
Funny how controversial a little dose of Profem can be. Posted by Kid Quislet on :
By-the-by, I don't think it's been mentioned yet in these posts, but Color Kid was the first patient of the "Gender Reversal Germ" idea of Giffen in a story where the Subs and Tenzil Kem take on Pulsar Stargrave.
As can be expected, the Subs are again abused (Giffen's favorite doormats) and a once noble villian is reduced to farcical pulp.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by deanlegion:
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: deanlegion, this is exactly what I mean about subverting character continuity and contradicting common sense. Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona. The near-omniscient Darkseid targeted him and his family as his personal victims but never sensed that Garth was someone other than he claimed to be. Garth had a nervous breakdown and still no Proty emerged, nor did his telepathic wife see anything alien when she entered his subconscious. Neither his sister nor his brother even suspected that something was amiss (despite the retcon dialog you quoted). Finally, never in the 30 years prior to this "revelation" had Garth ever done, said or thought anything that even remotely suggested that an inhuman mind had possessed his body.
In other words, the Bierbaums deliberately sabotaged the efforts of previous creators for shock value, turning heroes into liars in order to titillate jaded Legion fans with unexpected twists. They did not care about the characters we came to love and admire. There was nothing "clever" about it because it made not an iota of sense. And don't get me started on their equally absurd treatment of Sun Boy. Imo, the Bierbaums were a canker sore on Legion continuity. I agree with your assessment that the reboot, for all its problems, came not a moment too soon.
You're right that it made no sense, and all the other evidence you've cited proves it. I guess I'm most willing to give on the Imra aspect. That she either knew and made peace with it, or so staunchly denied it that there was NO way he'd come right out and tell her. The most frustrating thing for me is to try and figure out a way to make it make sense, and I'm finding that impossible. Still, it's canon (Dean ducks and runs from the continuity patrol), so I accept it. Proty comes out a deceiving, lying sneak no matter how he managed to keep the secret all those years.
UH, I'm pretty sure that comment by TC is not true. I've recently read through the late 200's up to TMK and recall I think Darkseid saying Garth was not what he seemed. I'll have to look again but maybe someone else also remembers.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona.
One interesting point is that the Luck Lords story was based on the notion that Garth's death would cause some sort of cosmic disaster. If we accept that Garth really died and it was Proty all along, then the Luck Lords should have gotten what they wanted.
Posted by Tromium Crystal on :
Good one, EDE. I'll add it to the list.
Blockade Boy, Darkseid appeared IIRC on three separate occasions before the Bierbaums came on board: The Great Darkness Saga (including v1 Annual #3), v3 Annual #2 and The Quiet Darkness story of 1991. I've read all but the last and recall no such reference. If you don't find it in The Quiet Darkness (a story that doesn't appear to include Garth), I can't imagine where it would be.
[ August 26, 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Tromium Crystal ]
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: Funny how controversial a little dose of Profem can be.
Unreported side effect. Recall that drug!
Posted by deanlegion on :
Ugh! Yes, Profem has a way of bringing out all kinds of.... stuff. Best to be taken when really, REALLY neccessary....
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: Good one, EDE. I'll add it to the list.
Blockade Boy, Darkseid appeared IIRC on three separate occasions before the Bierbaums came on board: The Great Darkness Saga (including v1 Annual #3), v3 Annual #2 and The Quiet Darkness story of 1991. I've read all but the last and recall no such reference. If you don't find it in The Quiet Darkness (a story that doesn't appear to include Garth), I can't imagine where it would be.
I keep telling myself to take notes on things I notice on re-reads. It was definitly one of the biggee bad guys making comment about Garth that made me think he knew about Proty. It's one of those one-liners that means nothing if when you read through the first time. Kind of like now, I've just been reading the issues where Mon-El just won't die and no-one can explain. Of course, we all know why because of what happens in future issues.
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