posted
Really great issue!!! I agree it would have been great to have Frank on the art one more time, but it was great to see Garth interacting with Clark and Bruce, and I was thrilled to see him connect with Thom again too!
And as a Starman fan, I absolutely loved the Danny Blaine reference! We knew from Robinson's Starman series that a Thom Kallor from the future was destined to be the next Starman, using the name Danny Blaine. The question of which Thom would fulfill that destiny has been a bit muddled, as Jack Knight met a young postboot Thom who appeared to grow up and become the Kingdom Come Starman, but it appears since the Lightning Saga story, it's the preboot Thom again.
Robinson already accounted for the discrepancy during Jack and Thom's final meeting, with Thom indicating that things may or may not happen (as there were both events in the past and future that could effect the present. Gotta love time travel in a multiverse...especially with a bad guy who likes to mess up continuity 'cause he's got a grudge. Trapper's back! Looking forward to L3W (so long as it doesn't turn into a bloodbath with Prime around). Johns story and Perez art...it's like printing money!!!!
-------------------- Craig C.
- Time travel stories are told in chronillogical order.
From: Santa Ana, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I found it almost impossible to read due to the ametuerish art. Heads all tiny and squished in relation to their bodies, that really weird hair on LL, etc., all detracted from the overall reading experience for me. Thankfully the continuation is another book and Perez, while not my favorite artist is at least competent even though everything he draws reminds me somewhat of wedding cake decoration.
-------------------- Is that a moon?
From: Portland, OR | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Except for not having Frank (who really won me over with his art by the end) This issue was actually better than the issue resolving the Earth-man story. Of course I think GJ is better at building up threats than resolving the stories that come from them.
But the Thom/Danny from Starman is the reboot version. I'm quite worried about him now because he's expendable isn't he. Plus near the end of "The Legion" Reboot Nura was all creeped over seeing his death or something.
So the big thing is that Batman knows all three Legions. Also the upcoming L3W will actually be the second time the 3 Legions meet. There was an unused panel from Dale Eaglesham depicting a meeting 3 very youthful teams in a barn (Kansas?) no less.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Zero Kahn: I was happy to see Karate Kid and Una get a decent send off after the horrible treatment they got in Countdown.
And it was finally established that Una was Duo Damsel not Triplicate Girl. I'm disappointed by this in that now there is only one powerless Lu left... hopefully when the Three Legion Worlds collide/collapse, there will be at least 2 of her still standing.
-------------------- The poster formerly known as Carggaphile.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Zero Kahn: I was happy to see Karate Kid and Una get a decent send off after the horrible treatment they got in Countdown.
And it was finally established that Una was Duo Damsel not Triplicate Girl. I'm disappointed by this in that now there is only one powerless Lu left... hopefully when the Three Legion Worlds collide/collapse, there will be at least 2 of her still standing.
Which can get really confusing. So I took this as the Time Trapper never killed one of DD's bodies. Well maybe he did but not like the classic LSH v3. #50.
Supes did go out of his way to state the KK has now died twice.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Zero Kahn: I was happy to see Karate Kid and Una get a decent send off after the horrible treatment they got in Countdown.
And it was finally established that Una was Duo Damsel not Triplicate Girl. I'm disappointed by this in that now there is only one powerless Lu left... hopefully when the Three Legion Worlds collide/collapse, there will be at least 2 of her still standing.
Yeah, but Starman (Thom) implied that there are big changes in store for Lu. In the pre-Crisis Legion, we were told tht Lu should have died when her first third died. Apparently, this was true of other Carggites (I think that's where she was from).
It could be that Lu was a mutant of her race -- maybe should has the power to create more duplicates -- but just doesn't know it.
Sadly, it appears Karate Kid ain't coming back. Way to go Giffen!
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
This makes me wish Shooter would create a villian named Keeth Gifin aka The Hackler,and have Val kick the sh!t out of him.
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: Supes did go out of his way to state the KK has now died twice.
Ya know I 've been wondering how/ who would catch on that when Val appeared. I was especially wondering why "Sensor Girl" wouldn't be freaking out about his death..cause...yeah that boggles the mind..Darn you Goeff and your crazy plot twists that only you know!
From: Bismoll, baby! Yeah!! | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Yikes, this thread definitely lost some posts. There were a few comments for #860. It was a mixed bag for me. I like the idea that Superman connects with the Legion as his childhood friends, and that Batman totally just does not get it at all. I'm not too sure I like the way that Johns has Lightning Lad and the Legion call him "Kal" and Batman calls him "Clark." I'd probably prefer Clark from all parties, because I guess I always liked the old cliche that "Clark" is who he really is at heart.
I can't remember who mentioned it in one of the lost posts, but Johns' take on Garth is just so wrong. I don't feel like John's really gets some of the Levitz era characterizations, which this version should at least roughly correspond to. As was pointed out in the lost prior post, Garth was a stay at home dad and at any rate was never depicted as much of a hothead until the 5YG. That was grafted in by the Bierbaums as part of the whole ludicrous Proty retcon and his more laidback personality was played off as Proty's. And yet here in 860, we see him zapping policemen with little provocation. Ugh.
For that matter, I don't really remember Superboy ever seeming especially friendly with Garth. It seems like he was closer to his "big brother" Mon-El, and Brainiac 5.
The art in this issue is simply as amateurish and unappealing as anything I've seen in a long time. Garth looks like he's on steriods, which I guess would explain the rage. After the Gary Frank art that preceded it (especially the last couple issues when the "crazy eyes" had gone away) this was a big letdown.
I liked seeing the Time Trapper back in action again. Does Superman no longer remember meeting the post 5YG team anymore? He met them during that long story when he was bouncing around the time stream. They fought that crazified Dev-Em and then the moon was blown up. It's frustrating because I want that era to fit in somehow as well, even though I guess it's not in favor now.
From: Douglasville, GA | Registered: Jul 2003
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For that matter, I don't really remember Superboy ever seeming especially friendly with Garth. It seems like he was closer to his "big brother" Mon-El, and Brainiac 5.
QB]
Totally disagree--there is ample evidence of their friendship--Garth was the first Legionnaire to save Superboy's (as well as Krypto's) life. And Superboy was of course, willing to sacrifice his own life to revive Garth.
-------------------- "I am the LEGION--you colossal Jerk!"--Garth Ranzz LEGION #63
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I agree with matlock. It was a disturbingly wrong characterization on so many levels. Not only the caveman looks and personality, but the idea LL didn't have an innate sense of right and wrong, and had to be taught the difference by Clark Kent. He doesn't "fit" with Johnsboot Saturn Girl, either.
There's a 99.99 chance I'm reading too much into the cloth bandages on LL's arm. Not the fact they're anachronistic in the medically and hygenically advanced 31st century, and would burn off the first time he used his powers. I mean he's not the only character in this issue wearing cloth bandages on his arms.
The rest was desperate backpedaling:
-- In the Lightning Saga, the JLA and JSA didn't know the Johnsboot Legion from jack. Now Batman suddenly remembers the three teams fighting Mordru together way back when. Hal, Jay, Dinah, PG and others should have remembered that battle too -- but in LSaga everyone acted like they'd never heard of the Legion before.
-- Batman remembers some of the reboot Legionnaires from Final Night, while Superman, who met the *entire* reboot Legion in the 20th century, fought at their side and parlayed with them afterwards, has conveniently forgotten all about them.
-- Johns still hasn't explained when, how and why Karate Kid was resurrected from the dead (before he got dead again) and I bet you he never does.
-- Una, until this issue, was unquestionably part of Triplicate Girl. KK called her TG, she called herself TG and even spoke of her two other selves in the future. Now, inexplicably, she's Duo Damsel. Or was.
I'm not sure what to make of Danny Blaine's, er, Starman's prediction that Luornu will multiply like WaK's Triplicate Girl. It may be a clue to the "merger" we've speculated about -- or just the rantings of a madman signifying nothing.
Johns isn't stupid -- but I think he believes Legion fans are so enthralled by his doppelgangers they'll give him carte blanche to do anything he damn well pleases and ignore the obvious fact he's making up junk as he goes along. Sad thing is, he may be right.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
the only thing i really noticed that bugged me(the artwork was ok) is that time trappers skin was green looking,( that could have been the weird lighting in his bubble area.)
-------------------- ／l、 ﾞ（ﾟ､ ｡ ７ l、ﾞ ~ヽ じしf_, )ノ
i do commissions
From: ny | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Wow, I can't believe I'm offering these arguments in favor of Johns's plotting, but here goes:
1) During the Lightning Saga, Batman knew about the Legion, but didn't know Karate Kid, so I'm not sure that's an inconsistency. KK wasn't in the original JLA/JSA/LSH crossover, and wasn't part of Team 20 in the 2boot, and as far as I can tell from the covers, wasn't in KK's solo title. Of course, if you were writing Batman CORRECTLY, Bats would have a full dossier on every Legionnaire gleaned from offhand comments by Supes and the statues in the Fortress of Solitude. Still, I think Johns deserves a pass on Batman.
2) I recall at the time of Team 20 and Final Night, Superman expressed puzzlement over the changes in his friends (I remember a Lightning Lad/Live Wire comment). Of course, at that time, Superman had not been Superboy and had "met" the Legion before but as far as we know wasn't a member of the Legion. It's one of the things I hold most against DC editorial, the Superman creative teams, and the whole 2Boot enterprise that they mixed up all this stuff so badly. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think you can blame Johns for this. Johns seems to have tried to deal with this by having his Superman/Legion sever ties prior to Final Night/Team 20 and his Superman thinking something is odd about the future, but unable/unwilling to pursue it. It's a weak argument, but it does the best of making lemonade from the lemons of the 1990s.
3) I tend to agree with Trom about wrapping up the KK and Una stories. I will be presently surprised if Johns addresses this satisfactorily. Lord knows I don't understand it -- as near as I can see, the KK/Una story was a way to tie KK and Kamandi into Countdown (and a nod to the last ish of KK's 1970s solo book) and a use of already dead Legionnaires (so new deaths weren't needed) and a way to get Giffen to work on Countdown (so he could rejoice in killing KK again). Boy, THAT'S a character-driven plot for you.
HOWEVER, I do think you can explain the Trom's Trip/Duo question by noting that, from Una's perspective, she has 2 selves left in the future, thus strongly indicating she is the self killed by Computo, while Superman remembers her from a later time period as Duo Damsel.
All of this makes my head hurt. Obviously, no one can be a fan of the Legion WITHOUT being concerned with time travel, paradoxes, and the like, but this is too much. Cue Reboot making a pithy and amusing snark about how this is all bollocks.
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Superman having known the first Legion from his youth probably dismissed the ZH/Final Night Legion as a duplicate LSH, especially if his friend Brainy had told him that another was out there.
Its pretty clear from the deleted art from JSA that Johns has retconned an encounter between the three Legions into the Adventure era. The encounter might have occurred at the Kent farm in Kansas. So Final Night may actually now be the second encounter between modern Superman and the reboot Legion. It's not clear when this happened in the reboot Legion's continuity relative to Final Night, but its certainly before the DnA run. So Superman assumes his LSH is the 'real' one and tells Bats this.
From the Teen Titans perspective, the ZH Legion is the real Legion because Bart and Conner were attached to it and they interacted with it on several occasions. So if Robin were in this issue he'd tell Bats that the reboot was real.
From current Supergirl's perspective, the third version is the real one because she was with them for several months. So if she were in this issue she would speak for those who are joined Legion Fandom with the WaK series and tell Bats that her friend Starboy has dark skin.
Finally the way Johns wrote Batman in the issue represents the average comics fan. He doesn't know which version is real (and probably doesn't care) he's seen all three of them in the spinner rack of his career or yet another version on Kids' WB and it's just given him a headache.
This is mainly because of the missing issue of Countdown (Number 53) where Supergirl, Tim (Robin) and Cassie, and Kal-El had tea at the BatCave and they argued for 6 hours over which one was real.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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