quote:Originally posted by Spark's Boy: But on the other hand, if you make the effort to get into one version, why should you go all the way to try and get into another version rather than just finding something else to enjoy. There's loads out there without having to obsess over fifteen different versions of the Legion of Super-Heroes.
Pick one version, stick with it, then move on when that version ends IMO.
If you want, sure. But all versions of the Legion have things in common; depending on what you like about the Legion, it may be easy to get into a different version. That's how it is for me. I like 'em all.
I look at it as, why should I stop enjoying Legion comics just because DC editorial has dropped another brick? It's their mistake, not mine; why should I deprive myself of enjoyment?
posted
Spark's Boy, you do raise an interesting point... but it reminds me of DC's Superman policy of, say, 1988 until a few years ago: it boiled all Superman stories down to low levels that interested few; Grant Morrison's excellent All-Star series, the best ongoing Supe series in living memory (except for Alan Moore's similar Supreme run), would never have come about. In fact, during that era, DC's narrow focus only served to open the door for the imitation (Supreme) to out-Superman the "original."
Granted, Legion has never been as household a name as Supe, but there is logic in throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks: a series based on the cartoon would more likely draw cartoon fans in than the Waid-now-Shooter book; Johns' Legion could and does have more appeal to fans who were turned off by flavor-du-jour Legions of the post-Levitz eras (most flavors of which I enjoyed to varying degrees).
There's no harm in the effort, and through effort maybe we (and DC) have a better sense of what fans will go for. A one-size-fits-all approach may make sense over a long haul, but stunts growth and evolution; diversity and competition do that.
People only interested in one versino can limit themselves. That's their choice; but they can do that in a situation where many Legions are offered - but could not if the numbewr of Legions are trimmed back and theirs is eliminated. In other words, the many accomodates those who prefer the single, but the reverse is not true.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Spark's Boy, you do raise an interesting point... but it reminds me of DC's Superman policy of, say, 1988 until a few years ago: it boiled all Superman stories down to low levels that interested few; Grant Morrison's excellent All-Star series, the best ongoing Supe series in living memory (except for Alan Moore's similar Supreme run), would never have come about. In fact, during that era, DC's narrow focus only served to open the door for the imitation (Supreme) to out-Superman the "original."
Of course, the Superman that Alan Moore "borrowed" for Supreme, and Morrison based ASS on, has very little in common with the original, as various lawyers are presently busy pointing out to other lawyers. The original Superman had no Fortress, no Krypto, couldn't fly, was the sole survivor of his planet (where everyone was super-powered!) and wasn't the holier-than-thou sun-sneezer of later years. If anything, the "1988" Superman is marginally closer to that than the Weisinger version.
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Granted, Legion has never been as household a name as Supe, but there is logic in throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks: a series based on the cartoon would more likely draw cartoon fans in than the Waid-now-Shooter book; Johns' Legion could and does have more appeal to fans who were turned off by flavor-du-jour Legions of the post-Levitz eras (most flavors of which I enjoyed to varying degrees).
There's no harm in the effort, and through effort maybe we (and DC) have a better sense of what fans will go for. A one-size-fits-all approach may make sense over a long haul, but stunts growth and evolution; diversity and competition do that.
People only interested in one versino can limit themselves. That's their choice; but they can do that in a situation where many Legions are offered - but could not if the numbewr of Legions are trimmed back and theirs is eliminated. In other words, the many accomodates those who prefer the single, but the reverse is not true.
Okay, simple question - do you think the comic market, as presently consituted, can and will support the publication of enough separate ongoing LSH series to cater for all the tastes you mention.
Let's break down how many you would need.
Well, you explicitly mention:
1) LSH31C, as a "based on the cartoon" book 2) LSH v5, as the "Waid-now-Shooter" book and 3) "Johns' Legion" book, which we'll call "Superman and the LSH", since that's what he's said he'd want to write.
To that, you can add
4) A postboot book - call it "The Legion v2" for argument's sake
Straight off since DC have acknowledged that version.
Then, there's of course
5) LSH: 5YL (self explanatory)
And why don't we add, since it's stuff people have periodically called for over the past umpteen years at this board:
6) Adventure Comics (I'm sure you can guess) and 7) Legionnaires v2 (for a "Cockrum Legion" book)
We'll assume that Johns' Legion fulfills the "Levitz" niche.
And finally, since there were calls (EDE, I certainly remember wanting to see this):
8) Superboy's Legion v2.
Okay, so how many of them do you think the market can support? #1-3? #1-4? #1-5? All of them? Some other combination?
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
But just as it was interesting to see the Silver Age-stlye Adult Legion pop up in Superman/Batman a few years ago, the occasional project in *any* of those continuities could work.
Rather than calling for all versions to be avaiable all the time, I merely suggest that if a viable creative team wants to dust off a version and use it, they should be able to... assuming the project could reasonably be expected to be viable in the market as any other publishable project that creative team might pitch.
If Mike Allred wants to do a Silver Age Legion mini that does not tie into any ongoing series/universe, let him. If Mike Grell wanted to do an ongoing Sdaow Lass solo series set in the pre-Crisis 2970s, let him. If [insert hack team of your choice here whose last 5 series flopped] want to do a Adventures of Officer Dvron and Comet Queen series as a grim, stark noir drama... weigh it/veto it on its own merits rather than how it fits (or doesn't) in "continuity."
As Dark Horse has proven time and again, doing an occassional mini is a feasible way to handle properties that don't need to run month-in, month-out.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Also - I put "original" in quotes simply because the term can mean any number of things to any number of people. To some, Supreme was more "original" Superman than the Superman of the mid-90s. I don't necessarily agree, and you clearly don't. And I'm sure someone could argue Nietche's was the "original" Superman, for that matter.
My point was not to nitpick, but to point out that deliberately limiting one's scope can backfire (not that Supreme likely outsold any of the Supe books at the time, but it hypothetically could have).
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
I agree completely with Kent, in principle.
But now I'm left wondering: Why doesn't DC just give us a Legion series that's not "in-continuity"? Because that's exactly what I want.
I really have very little interest in any Legion where Booster Gold sneezes over in his series and that causes a War with the Dominators in the Legion. I don't want to have to worry about how Final Crisis has changed Superman's past and how that then affects his career with the Legion. But DC is not giving me that.
A large part of the reason why All-Star Superman is the best Superman title in years is that it's not connected to current "DC continuity" (whatever that is, exactly). That allows Morrison to do what he wants with the title and not worry about its ramifications for other titles (or, more importantly, the ramifications of other titles on it). If DC would just use the same recipe with the Legion that they used with All-Star Superman, I'd be happy. Give me an iconic version that's internally consistent and independent of the rest of what DC's doing, and that's a lot more important to me than whether something vaguely resembling the storyline of some random issue of SLSH is now "back in continuity", provided we modify the storyline slightly to take into account what happened to the Khunds in the latest issue of Wonder Woman, etc.
And maybe that's just my idiosyncratic preferences, because everyone seems all ga-ga over Johns's attempt to integrate the Legion as a central player in the mainstream DCU. But it seems to me that's exactly the kind of thing that screwed up the Legion so badly in the first place.
[ April 13, 2008, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Eryk Dumaka Ester ]
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: My point was not to nitpick, but to point out that deliberately limiting one's scope can backfire (not that Supreme likely outsold any of the Supe books at the time, but it hypothetically could have).
*bites his tongue to stop the dozen "hypothetically could have" strawmen that want to get out*
Seriously, you can 'prove' anything with "hypothetically could have".
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Rather than calling for all versions to be avaiable all the time, I merely suggest that if a viable creative team wants to dust off a version and use it, they should be able to... assuming the project could reasonably be expected to be viable in the market as any other publishable project that creative team might pitch.
If Mike Allred wants to do a Silver Age Legion mini that does not tie into any ongoing series/universe, let him. If Mike Grell wanted to do an ongoing Sdaow Lass solo series set in the pre-Crisis 2970s, let him. If [insert hack team of your choice here whose last 5 series flopped] want to do a Adventures of Officer Dvron and Comet Queen series as a grim, stark noir drama... weigh it/veto it on its own merits rather than how it fits (or doesn't) in "continuity."
I have to wonder how - given DC's record with miniseries that don't tie into anything (never mind its' record with miniseries that *do*) - how ANY such project could be as "viable in the market as any other publishable project that creative team might pitch".
[Well, okay, unless that other project is a high-concept Vertigo series, or a Wildstorm Universe series. But DC's starting to cut back on them - with Y gone, and Sandman spin-offs having finally dried up, Fables is the only success story between those imprints.]
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: As Dark Horse has proven time and again, doing an occassional mini is a feasible way to handle properties that don't need to run month-in, month-out.
I'm a bit confused. Looking at February's sales chart, Dark Horse's top sellers are: *Buffy S8 #11 (long-but-finite series, hardly a mini even if it'll get rebooted for "S9" at some point) *Star Wars Legacy #19 (ongoing) *Umbrella Academy #6 (written by someone who writes comics as a hobby) *Star Wars Dark Times #9 (not marked as a mini) *Conan #49 (about to be rebooted as another ongoing, Conan the Cimmeran) *Star Wars Rebellion #11 (not marked as a mini) *Abe Sapien: Drowning #1 (mini, but a new spinoff of Hellboy rather than a v2+) *BPRD 1946 #2 (BPRD - a series-of-miniseries - is another Hellboy spinoff, but a de facto ongoing since it doesn't have a break between minis)
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
I was not trying to *prove* anything with a hypothertical, only point out that some people found an imitation better than the regular. "Original" wasn't the best choice of words; "official" would have better reflected what I intended to say. Mea culpa.
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: I have to wonder how - given DC's record with miniseries that don't tie into anything (never mind its' record with miniseries that *do*) - how ANY such project could be as "viable in the market as any other publishable project that creative team might pitch".
Fair enough. I do not recall the sales figures on Superboy's Legion, but The Nail apparently proved successful enough for a sequel.
Likewise, I'm not up on current Dark Horse series or sales figures; I was referring to the era I knew best, the 1990s, when DH was rotating Star Wars minis, and books like Sin City, Concrete, and a number of others (like some of the Japanese series) came out mostly as the occassional mini.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: If you want, sure. But all versions of the Legion have things in common; depending on what you like about the Legion, it may be easy to get into a different version. That's how it is for me. I like 'em all.
I look at it as, why should I stop enjoying Legion comics just because DC editorial has dropped another brick? It's their mistake, not mine; why should I deprive myself of enjoyment?
That ONLY works if a title with "Legion" (or LSH, or whatever arrangement of words & letters that adds up to the same result) at the top of the cover is an end in itself for you. Shades of the people who bought Uncanny X-Men during Chuck Austen's reign of terror.
Just because it says its' something, and shares a few stylistic trappings with it, doesn't make it that thing.
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Spark's Boy, you do raise an interesting point... but it reminds me of DC's Superman policy of, say, 1988 until a few years ago: it boiled all Superman stories down to low levels that interested few; Grant Morrison's excellent All-Star series, the best ongoing Supe series in living memory (except for Alan Moore's similar Supreme run), would never have come about. In fact, during that era, DC's narrow focus only served to open the door for the imitation (Supreme) to out-Superman the "original."
Granted, Legion has never been as household a name as Supe, but there is logic in throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks: a series based on the cartoon would more likely draw cartoon fans in than the Waid-now-Shooter book; Johns' Legion could and does have more appeal to fans who were turned off by flavor-du-jour Legions of the post-Levitz eras (most flavors of which I enjoyed to varying degrees).
There's no harm in the effort, and through effort maybe we (and DC) have a better sense of what fans will go for. A one-size-fits-all approach may make sense over a long haul, but stunts growth and evolution; diversity and competition do that.
People only interested in one versino can limit themselves. That's their choice; but they can do that in a situation where many Legions are offered - but could not if the numbewr of Legions are trimmed back and theirs is eliminated. In other words, the many accomodates those who prefer the single, but the reverse is not true.
They've got three choices: 1) Pick a version and stick with it. It WILL alienate some people, but they'll build a core audience. If that's big enough - and it will include people like Matthew, who pick up any book with "Legion" in the title (probably, in some cases, even to the point of getting multiple copies) - it'll keep going. If not, they've lost the others, and some will be gone for good.
2) Get a bazooka and fire two, three, ten versions out into the marketplace. It'll split the vote - it's not a zero-sum game, but on the other hand factors beyond the simple version are at play - even I wouldn't buy a Spark series if it was written by Grant Morrison after his New X-Men, especially if he had the same artist(s) like that guy who made everyone look about fifty (Quietly? Something like that). Some people won't be able to afford all of them and will buy none of them. Some people will be offended, because there's no way they can do EVERY version. Etc, etc.
-------------------- I :love: :Spark:
[Not Light Lass]
Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: If you want, sure. But all versions of the Legion have things in common; depending on what you like about the Legion, it may be easy to get into a different version. That's how it is for me. I like 'em all.
I look at it as, why should I stop enjoying Legion comics just because DC editorial has dropped another brick? It's their mistake, not mine; why should I deprive myself of enjoyment?
That ONLY works if a title with "Legion" (or LSH, or whatever arrangement of words & letters that adds up to the same result) at the top of the cover is an end in itself for you. Shades of the people who bought Uncanny X-Men during Chuck Austen's reign of terror.
No, it goes deeper than that. Yes, there are differences between Legion versions and eras, but I have yet to read a Legion comic and say "that wasn't really a Legion comic". (Okay, maybe some of the 'Legion on the Run' stuff. But that didn't last long.) DC simply has never gotten it that far wrong.
These statements all describe every Legion version, for instance, and I happily agree that I'd buy any half-decent comic that called itself 'Legion' and shared these characteristics:
1. The Legion is a group of superheroes. 2. The Legionnaires started their heroic careers as teenagers. 3. The Legion lives in the distant future. 4. The future setting of the Legion is an optimistic one, and so is the Legion’s outlook. 5. There are many Legionnaires. 6. Being a Legionnaire is a special thing. 7. In Legion comics, characters can experience permanent change. 8. Either directly or indirectly, the Legion represents the legacy of Superman ten centuries in the future. 9. The future setting of the Legion is one in which space travel is common, and there is abundant life on other planets. 10. Legionnaires don’t all have overwhelming superpowers, but combine their more modest talents through teamwork to be effective.
I vehemently deny the multiple-copies charge.
[ April 14, 2008, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Matthew E ]
10. Legionnaires don’t all have overwhelming superpowers, but combine their more modest talents through teamwork to be effective.
The Legion was the most powerful team ever created and they had about 20 members capable of acting as a Planet's sole defender.
Which is good...since they have the task of protecting, at the minimum, an entire Planetary Confderation. And they fight wars. And have groups that control entire planetary systems among their stock villians.
That modestly powered premise make no sense given the responsibilities of the Legion, and it never did. IT certainly wasn't something Legion writers particularly focused on prior to about 1990.
Me? I want the team whose non-superpowered character is the most powerful HTH combatant ever created in comics...a guy capable of wiping the floor with Batman.
Whose joke character can eat the most powerful machine in existence.
I want Supergirl...and Laurel Gand, and Mon-El, Superboy(both of them), Ultraboy, and if Wildfire could get his ERG1 suit back, all the better, ditto Starboy's Kryptonian powers...after all, galaxies are big things. Really really big.
That's why the idea that too many powerful characters hurts the Legion's storyline/character development has never been a good one...
I mean you want to focus on Shrinking Violet...well chances are in a galaxy, there's some planet, among the billions in that galaxy about to get hit by an asteroid to keep Mon-El and Superboy busy.
The Legion has a big responsiblity...it makes no sense for them to have a bunch of X-Men and still realisticly handle their responsibility.
Phantom Girl? She's indestructible...
Dawnstar? She can fly the speed of light and track stuff across a Universe.
Shrinking Violet? That stroke trick was once used to defead Darkseid...
I don't want a bunch of misfits banding their meager powers together to take down giants, unless they are trying to take over the Universe...if I want to read that, I'll read the X-Men.
That is the premise of the X-men...they did it first, they do it better...and they used to rip off the Legion...not the other way around. I don't want the Legion to be the X-men. That's not who and what they are...and when that approach is taken, it's one of those things that turns the Legion into a generic Superteam.
[ April 14, 2008, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
As for the whole multiple Legions and how well that would sell...
The only time the team has carried two monthly titles was the worst selling version of the Legion ever...both in terms of total sales and in relation to it's peers. The Zero Hour Legion.
Those titles sold on average 25-40k(25k for the bulk of it) monthly, and were usually both in the bottom 30 of the top 100, before bottoming out with the DNA Legion which was selling @17k when it finally got cancelled, the alltime low point in Legion history.
DC didn't produce two Legion titles for the only time ever in the 90's because that Legion sold well compared to other Legions, not even in relation to it's peers...they did it because they learned they could count on that 25K core two times per month and they were trying to establish that Legion as the definitive version.
So yeah...it could be done. There is a core of about 25k that will buy just about any regular Legion title...it's been there for every version, except "The Legion" era of the ZH Legion and the Johnny DC Title. IF the worst selling version of the Legion(both in total sales and relation to it's peers) could carry two monthly titles and sell well enough justify their monthly publication for an extended period...I'd say the same rules would probably hold true for the Legion name being on 3 different versions, at least for a little while.
Although it is possible that 25k base would fragment and some Legion fans would stop buying Legion versions they bought previously because of a lack of alternatives.
Me? I'd give all 3 a try...it'd definitely a be a first in comics history...but I doubt DC is feeling that concept.
IMO, if anything, DC would probably like to replicate sales of a better selling Legion like they did with the ZH Legion...and the best selling Legion of all time(both in terms of total sales, and in relation to it's peers) is Superboy and the Legion, so my guess is that DC is going to add the popular characters from the Post Crisis Legions(suriving this L3W story), like Gates, XS, Andromeda, perhaps a couple of original cast Legionaires from the current version will replace their Action Legion counterparts(like the more powerful W&K Trips for instance) to the Action version...and if they do any multiple titles it'll be of one combined version of the Legion...perhaps one with a focus on the early years with Superboy(or an adult version with Superman which Johns has said is what he wants to write), and one monthly devoted to contemporary stories focusing on characterization etc. At the very least a regular monthly with regularly produced companion minis would be viable, more commecially viable than anything done with the team in decades IMO.
Of course...now that I think about it, that would make the most sense both commercially and possibly even in the endeavor of soothing the irritated and fragmented Legion fan base...and DC seldom does what makes sense with the Legion.
[ April 14, 2008, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Spark's Boy: They've got three choices: 1) Pick a version and stick with it. It WILL alienate some people, but they'll build a core audience. If that's big enough - and it will include people like Matthew, who pick up any book with "Legion" in the title (probably, in some cases, even to the point of getting multiple copies) - it'll keep going. If not, they've lost the others, and some will be gone for good.
2) Get a bazooka and fire two, three, ten versions out into the marketplace. It'll split the vote - it's not a zero-sum game, but on the other hand factors beyond the simple version are at play - even I wouldn't buy a Spark series if it was written by Grant Morrison after his New X-Men, especially if he had the same artist(s) like that guy who made everyone look about fifty (Quietly? Something like that). Some people won't be able to afford all of them and will buy none of them. Some people will be offended, because there's no way they can do EVERY version. Etc, etc.
I'd have agreed with you on option #1 a few years ago, but between the Johns Legion and the animated book, it seems that multiple versions are vialbe, at least for the short run.
Multiple versions can splinter the vote, true. But if different versions are drawing different audiences, then the numbers on two or more books can draw in much more than a single book. While that represents greater expense to put out two different books, it doubles the chance that one of them will succeed.
90s DC did try the audience-building route with Reboot Legion; it didn't work. Regardless of its merits (and it did have some), it did not draw the numbers. I don't know that Reboot LSH's #s would have been twice as big without a second monthly book; it's just as conceivable that version just didn't appeal to most comic-buyers.
Under the "one way" scenario, all we can ever have is a series of 'boots; I think it is more productive to try several things at once - not necessarily on a permanent basis.
If you don't try, you don't know if something can work better, and we all settle for dwindling numbers.
I give DC credit for making the attempt right now; it would be a shame if DnA had been the last truly enjoyable Legion run.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Another idea is a main Legion title like Shooter's is now and then a multiverse sister team-up book.
Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes & INSERT HERE (Superman, Flash, Supergirl) depending on the Legion.
The postboot ZH Legion should focus on the Flash mythos with XS, Impulse/Kid Flash, the Teen Titans, and Kon-El. Tales of the LOSH & Flash or Teen Titans or Superboy (if that is ever allowed). We get a nice two to three issue arc and then rotate to...
Tales of the LOSH & Superman. The current Action Legion. After that story arc we rotate to
The Shooter& fjm Legion written by a guest creative team. Tales of the LOSH & Supergirl.
Yes it can get confusing. Especially with Supergirl who has ties to all three teams. The Teen Titans have ties to the postboot ZH Legion and she is currently a member of the TT.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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Especially with Supergirl who has ties to all three teams. The Teen Titans have ties to the postboot ZH Legion and she is currently a member of the TT.
