quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: And FWIW, I agree that Superman bursting on the scene as the first new superhero in generations is really preferable to Superboy in training pants for years in Smallville.
In the Post-Crisis universe, Superman was merely the powerful new guy joining the crowd. There weren't just Golden Age heroes. To start from the top, Batman was older than Superman and had been active for a few years before him.
quote:As I've written before, I think Superboy and Superman, were, in the Silver Age, 2 separate characters from a practical point of view, because, outside the one-off "secret origins," you never saw Clark really changing from boy to man, grieving the loss of his parents, making a new life in Metropolis, leaving the Legion mostly behind like your best friends from high school when you go to college out of state and never move back home. The 2 characters always existed in these separate, almost parallel, narrative arcs.
This is why I was never interested in Superboy. There was this big gap in years between them, but they weren't that different. Superboy got involved in Superman-style adventures. What was the point in having the separate characters? What was the dramatic significance of the change from Superboy to Superman?
quote:SuperBOY's Smallville never really made it out of the 1920s, even as SuperMAN's life lurched into contemporary modernity in the 1970s.
Technically, in the early Silver Age, Superboy stories took place in the 1930s. Then when they decided Superman was in his 20s, not his 40s (this was a really significant point - why is it not widely documented when it happened?), they moved Superboy stories up to the 50s. Smallville never experienced WW2. Thus, it remained stuck in an idealized past. I've held for a long time that the reason Superboy was seen as dated was the sliding timeline. By the late 70s, Superboy stories would take place in the 60s. Smallville wasn't designed to tell stories in the social revolution of the 60s.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Zero Kahn: I really like the angle Johns has gone with in regards to Superman and the Legion in that he did wear the costume when he was young, but only did it when he was in the future hanging out with the Legion.
If only Byrne had thought of that all those years ago we could have all be saved alot of grife.
Credit where credit is due. Geoff Johns is not the originator of this idea, and I wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly infer that he is. Johns "borrowed" it from much more fertile and original minds -- the creators of the cartoon Legion, James Tucker and company.
The idea the Legion trained and inspired young Clark to be Superman is theirs, too.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I've only seen brief glimpses of the cartoon. Why do there appear to be 2 Superboys in them?
One of them is the Superman that the show started out with, pretty much as per comics with the exception that they didn't use the name Superboy. The other Superman was from the Legion's future and if I recall correctly, had original Superman DNA put in him plus advances in science made him immune to kryptonite. He was created by these other creatures to battle the show's new villain, Imperiax, it was his soul reason for existance.
-------------------- I have lived for the Legion and one day I shall die for the Legion.
From: Bgztl | Registered: Feb 2008
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
Darn it. I miss the cartoon. Even crappy future Superman got kind of interesting by the end.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: Credit where credit is due. Geoff Johns is not the originator of this idea, and I wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly infer that he is. Johns "borrowed" it from much more fertile and original minds -- the creators of the cartoon Legion, James Tucker and company.
The idea the Legion trained and inspired young Clark to be Superman is theirs, too.
Johns could sure do worse for inspiration as well. That cartoon really had some genius tucked away behind the silly pictures.
Registered: Aug 2006
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Arm Fall Off Boy
Now starring in his own DC Comic, September 2011!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: It could have been about a young Kal coming to terms with his powers, who he really was, and the agony of having to voluntarily join the lower caste of high school. That young Clark never made mistakes, never acted out, never did anything remotely teen-like, and that nothing but perfect harmony ever existed with the Kents made it a sad cardboard cutout of what it could have been (Smallville, in other words).
I disagree somewhat on this. Smallville as a whole has been a favorite of mine--possibly I'm clinging to some faint hope of my Superboy hero from my youth. It has certainly had its ups and downs, and WAAAAAYYY too much Clark pining over Lana, and there were near whole seasons where I just wanted to go "GET OVER HER ALREADY!" But as a whole, I think that Clark onSmallville has certainly made his share of mistakes, that resulted, for instance, in Lana's death, which he then manages to undo, a la Lois in Superman : The Movie. This ultimately costs him a chance at saving Jonathan's life. He argued with Jonathan over playing football, wanting to fit in like other kids, to get the girl partially; he did rebel, albeit as a result of Red K; he gets caught sneaking a girl out of his room; there are other instances. My point is, this character is not perfect, and while he could be MUCH better (and actually is, IMO, this season), I wouldn't call him cardboard.
quote: Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I agree with Doub that the Legion was a vital niche for Superboy. It was the only avenue to do anything fresh and meaningful with him.
quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: Technically, in the early Silver Age, Superboy stories took place in the 1930s. Then when they decided Superman was in his 20s, not his 40s (this was a really significant point - why is it not widely documented when it happened?), they moved Superboy stories up to the 50s. Smallville never experienced WW2. Thus, it remained stuck in an idealized past. I've held for a long time that the reason Superboy was seen as dated was the sliding timeline. By the late 70s, Superboy stories would take place in the 60s. Smallville wasn't designed to tell stories in the social revolution of the 60s.
These I have to agree with. As everyone knows, no era was perfect. There were kids having premarital sex in the 40's and 50's. Heck, my great-great grandparents got married 3 months before they had their first baby-in 1888! But what most wanted to see was the Happy Days style of life, and that's what we got in the Superboy comics. Honestly, I miss those, but I'm probably one of the few that does. I agree that Superboy needed a life, and the Legion provided that. I mean, super-powered girls had crushes on him! Who wouldn't like that? Everybody wants to belong, and with them, he did. Sorry for the marathon post.
-------------------- Long Live all them Legions!
From: North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
I loved the superboy comic of the early 80s It's in part what got me into the legion in the first place. I loved that smallville. Though they did need some color in it ROFL. SInce they never said where Smallville was exactly it could have been relatively isolated from intergration. And as are some small towns today relatively isolated from major social changes (Sexual revolution) till sometime later on.
-------------------- Bring back the super-cousins
From: nyc | Registered: Jul 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
Superboy living in a small town in Kansas. One black haired adopted kid in town who just happens to move to Metropolis on the same day Superboy/man does. And no-one puts two and two together.
Only slightly less unbelievable than no-one noticing Superman/boy's costume under white shirts.
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I love the white shirt point. Was there ever a "tailor to the super heroes" character at either Marvel or DC? If not, it would be a great story! Imagine a talented young Jewish tailor in New York City at the time of the Golden Age, who gets rediscovered as an old man by Superman--Wildcat or Hawkman gives Superman his business card. You'd want a good tailor not just for the superhero costume, but as much or more for the secret identity, as SA Lad indicates.
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: It could have been about a young Kal coming to terms with his powers, who he really was, and the agony of having to voluntarily join the lower caste of high school. That young Clark never made mistakes, never acted out, never did anything remotely teen-like, and that nothing but perfect harmony ever existed with the Kents made it a sad cardboard cutout of what it could have been (Smallville, in other words).
I disagree somewhat on this. Smallville as a whole has been a favorite of mine--possibly I'm clinging to some faint hope of my Superboy hero from my youth. It has certainly had its ups and downs, and WAAAAAYYY too much Clark pining over Lana, and there were near whole seasons where I just wanted to go "GET OVER HER ALREADY!" But as a whole, I think that Clark onSmallville has certainly made his share of mistakes, that resulted, for instance, in Lana's death, which he then manages to undo, a la Lois in Superman : The Movie. This ultimately costs him a chance at saving Jonathan's life. He argued with Jonathan over playing football, wanting to fit in like other kids, to get the girl partially; he did rebel, albeit as a result of Red K; he gets caught sneaking a girl out of his room; there are other instances. My point is, this character is not perfect, and while he could be MUCH better (and actually is, IMO, this season), I wouldn't call him cardboard.
I do believe you misinterpreted me.
I held out Smallville as an example of what the Superboy comic should have been. The comic is what I was calling cardboard - not the TV show (while I haven't seen all of it, I've loved all of it except the Lana-as-reincarnated-witch bit).
That the Clark of TV could make mistakes is exactly what I mean - the comic-book Superboy essentially never could.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I have to agree with some of you, I never liked Superboy stories, that always seemed to be simply Superman stories in Smallville (Lana is trying to figure out his ID, Lois is trying to figure out his ID, Clark as a teen is seen as weak, Clark as an adult is seen as weak, etc.)
But I LOVE the Superboy in two instances (and only two). I LOVE Superboy in the Legion. I like the idea that he inspires the Legion, not to be a hero as an adult (like Superman would) but rather that as a TEENAGER they can be great heroes. To me that original inspiration story is stronger than the Legion trains him to be a hero, because I think it is cool that they see him as a GREAT hero while he is their peer.
But I also admit that having him operate out of Smallville and then appear in Metropolis and all that is buckum, so as continuity has become more important to fans, the original version simply isn't viable so we have to go with the cartoon solution as the marriage between two ideas (Superman comes out of the blue to Metropolis, no one knows of a Superboy and the Legion and Superboy should be linked).
The other idea I like about Superboy is when he confronts the Phantom Zone criminals (and even Dev-Em). For someone who finds out he is an alien and then discovers the only living remnants of his home culture (besides his dog) are all mass murders and one punk. I mean, that's like discovering you're German (and assuming Germany no longer exists) and then meeting a group of Nazis. The worse part of your homeland's is all that survives (or is alive). I always thought that was awesome for a teenager who (I think) just recently discovered he was from an alien culture and then meeting the worse part of that culture when he is still yearning for knowledge about where he's from. I think SUPERBOY would feel those emotions much more keenly than an adult SUPERMAN ever could.
Anyways, the rest of the Superboy stories I could throw out and never think about again, they were just Superman stories but with a different supporting cast. But the Legion and the Phantom Zone criminals are really made special by Superboy and really make Superboy special.
-------------------- Long Live the Legion!
Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I've only seen brief glimpses of the cartoon. Why do there appear to be 2 Superboys in them?
One of them is the Superman that the show started out with, pretty much as per comics with the exception that they didn't use the name Superboy. The other Superman was from the Legion's future and if I recall correctly, had original Superman DNA put in him plus advances in science made him immune to kryptonite. He was created by these other creatures to battle the show's new villain, Imperiax, it was his soul reason for existance.
Thanks for the answer, but I don't get it. What's the point of putting 2 Supermen in the Legion at once? Isn't it confusing enough with all the reboot versions? What do they call them? Superman 1 and Superman 2?
-------------------- Buy my new graphic novel! http://www.dodeka12.com
From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I've only seen brief glimpses of the cartoon. Why do there appear to be 2 Superboys in them?
One of them is the Superman that the show started out with, pretty much as per comics with the exception that they didn't use the name Superboy. The other Superman was from the Legion's future and if I recall correctly, had original Superman DNA put in him plus advances in science made him immune to kryptonite. He was created by these other creatures to battle the show's new villain, Imperiax, it was his soul reason for existance.
Thanks for the answer, but I don't get it. What's the point of putting 2 Supermen in the Legion at once? Isn't it confusing enough with all the reboot versions? What do they call them? Superman 1 and Superman 2?
I found this on Wikipedia, it may or may not be what your looking for. but it does explain a bit about the cartoon version of Imperiax and the 41st century Superman. I know they injected some humor into the cartoon by having both Superman characters answer in unison to the name "Superman". Each was given a distictive personality as well. Personally, I didn't care for the 41st century Superman at all, and until recently I thought Imperiax was a character made up for the cartoon. Turns out he is actually a DC villain. They drew them differently as well so telling the the characters apart was easy. They really were two different people from head to toe, the only thing they had in common was the Superman DNA. Even the powers had differences. Anyway, here's what the Wikipedia said:
Imperiex appears in the Legion of Super Heroes animated series, voiced by Phil Morris. [2] The character was deemed to be a big enough threat to be used as the primary villain for the entire second season, but enough of a blank slate that his "real" DC Universe history could be modified for the TV version. [3] In the show, Imperiex was originally an alien (presumably from the planet Apokolips) raised in a gladiator lifestyle; over time his body was modified by the technology created by a scientist named Abel that allowed a perfect union of organic tissue and cybernetics. In the 41st century, Imperiex has wiped out nearly all resistance that stands in his way, with a only a clone of Superman named Kell-El left to oppose him. Unable to stop Imperiex and his army, Kell-El travels back to the 31st century to recruit the Legion of Superheroes to help stop Imperiex. Although Brainiac 5 comes up with a plan that appears to stop him by taking advantage of his weakpoint, Imperiex is able to take the device Kell-El used to travel through time to escape to the Legion's timeline. After escaping to the 31st century, Imperiex secretly frees the Fatal Five and the Legion of Super-Villains from prison, recruiting Validus. He hacks into Computo, downloading information about the Legion's arsenal at the time as well as acquiring some data that he offers to the Dominion. Outside of Validus, the Dominion, and his Destructo-Bots, Imperiex works with and recruits villains such as Mekt Ranzz, Ron-Karr, and Grimbor the Chainsman to aid him, although he was perplexed by those villains who left him. In "Unnatural Alliances," the cybernetic villain Terra-Man was targeting a younger Abel which Imperiex wouldn't allow. In the final fight with Terra Man, Superman X and Imperiex worked together to destroy Terra Man. In "Message in a Bottle," Imperiex and his armies invade the Fortress of Solitude so he can steal "The Messenger" from the shrunken city of Kandor. Brainiac 5 was forced to tap into his ancestor's knowledge and used it to turn the sun yellow, the Kandorians managed to fight back and caused Imperiex's army to retreat. However, Imperiex intended Brainiac 5 to do that in order for him to become a ideal member of his campaign. Unfortunately, Imperiex ends up being impaled and killed by Brainiac 1.0 (in Brainiac 5's body), who thanked him for his part.
As opposed to his comic-book incarnation, this Imperiex instead relies on physical, direct combat. He is stronger than Superman, and is virtually indestructible. The only time that he is vulnerable is when he uses a cannon mounted in his chest, which is also his most powerful weapon. In addition, he wields a pair of powerful swords that can fire out waves of energy. He is also exceptionally intelligent and cunning.
-------------------- I have lived for the Legion and one day I shall die for the Legion.
From: Bgztl | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: I have to agree with some of you, I never liked Superboy stories, that always seemed to be simply Superman stories in Smallville (Lana is trying to figure out his ID, Lois is trying to figure out his ID, Clark as a teen is seen as weak, Clark as an adult is seen as weak, etc.)
But I LOVE the Superboy in two instances (and only two). I LOVE Superboy in the Legion. I like the idea that he inspires the Legion, not to be a hero as an adult (like Superman would) but rather that as a TEENAGER they can be great heroes. To me that original inspiration story is stronger than the Legion trains him to be a hero, because I think it is cool that they see him as a GREAT hero while he is their peer.
But I also admit that having him operate out of Smallville and then appear in Metropolis and all that is buckum, so as continuity has become more important to fans, the original version simply isn't viable so we have to go with the cartoon solution as the marriage between two ideas (Superman comes out of the blue to Metropolis, no one knows of a Superboy and the Legion and Superboy should be linked).
The other idea I like about Superboy is when he confronts the Phantom Zone criminals (and even Dev-Em). For someone who finds out he is an alien and then discovers the only living remnants of his home culture (besides his dog) are all mass murders and one punk. I mean, that's like discovering you're German (and assuming Germany no longer exists) and then meeting a group of Nazis. The worse part of your homeland's is all that survives (or is alive). I always thought that was awesome for a teenager who (I think) just recently discovered he was from an alien culture and then meeting the worse part of that culture when he is still yearning for knowledge about where he's from. I think SUPERBOY would feel those emotions much more keenly than an adult SUPERMAN ever could.
Anyways, the rest of the Superboy stories I could throw out and never think about again, they were just Superman stories but with a different supporting cast. But the Legion and the Phantom Zone criminals are really made special by Superboy and really make Superboy special.
I largely agree, and love the Nazi angle.
By the 70s, Superboy had machines and things to actualyl help him recall life on Krypton. It would be a lot more powerful and tragic if he had to rely solely on what the villains are willing to share (and opens the door to neat maniuplation stories).
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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