posted
Oh, I hated the Schvaughn thing because I felt like I had been robbed of the Jan/Schvaughn romance that I loved reading about during the Levtiz era. Not that it became a transgender issue, but because it made Schvaughn so desperate and tragic. Killing her would have given me an equally distasteful reaction. But then again, the Jan/Schvaughn romance is among my favorites, with Drake & Dawny and Jo & Tinya.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I agree. Luckily, I am fully able to pretend that issue doesn't count, and that the Sean character was a completely different character all along (you can never have too many Seans).
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Oh, I hated the Schvaughn thing because I felt like I had been robbed of the Jan/Schvaughn romance that I loved reading about during the Levtiz era. Not that it became a transgender issue, but because it made Schvaughn so desperate and tragic. Killing her would have given me an equally distasteful reaction. But then again, the Jan/Schvaughn romance is among my favorites, with Drake & Dawny and Jo & Tinya.
See, this is precisely why I like the story so much. All characters must face some ordeal that makes them "desperate and tragic," at least for a time. In the story, young Jan kills Dominators and has to face the fact that he's just done what the Trommite cub in the story did. His situation is no less desperate and tragic than Sean's. In the end, though, both young Jan and Sean become stronger as a result of their ordeals. (It's hard to imagine a Jan who had gone through this ordeal trying to kill Roxxas, as older Jan did in SUPERBOY # 211.)
I liked the Element Lad/Shvaughn relationship, too, but I also like how TMK showed a different, deeper side to it. Jan felt that Shvaughn was clinging to him, and Shvaughn felt frustrated because Jan couldn't love her the way she wanted to be loved. (Few idols can.) This just seems very real to me. It shows that Sean must love himself for who he is before he can find the love of his life.
I also thought it was interesting that Jan was willing to stay with Sean after the change. He loved the spirit, not the body. But this wasn't what Sean wanted. Sean knew he had to break free from his dependence on Jan. Again, I think Sean comes off as a stronger and more admirable character for having gone through this ordeal.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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By the way, it also occurs to me that Sean isn't really transgendered ("a woman in a man's body"), but is "simply" gay. He feared Jan would reject him for being gay, hence the gender switch. It also seems he undertook this change because he had the opportunity to do so. In other words, if he hadn't been in a "Freebie Commune" where gender transformation was encouraged and Profem was easy to come by, he might not have sought out the change.
This is in line with something else I read today, which suggests that people often behave a certain way depending on the situation they find themselves in, and not because they are predisposed to being a certain way. (The article I read was "Obedience" by Ian Parker, a scholarly response to Stanley Milgram's 1963 experiment in which he had subjects shock someone (who was not really harmed) for giving the wrong answers.) The idea is that we might not go out of our way to help a complete stranger, but we might do so if we just happen to be there when the person needs help.
I don't know if this line of thinking makes the story any more palatable to fans who hate it, but perhaps it makes Sean's actions more understandable.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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iirc, a transgendered fan wrote in to praise the Shvaughn/Sean issue-- I will have to check the lettercols to verify-- but if I am right, this tells me that the issue was appreciated by someone who might be more "in the know" than we are.
quote:Originally posted by Crujectra of Psyonia: The Bierbaum issues were my favorites among the 5YG era. I was never a big fan of the earlier issues of that era.
When Keith left, I felt the series take an upward swing. The Legion began to feel like heroes again, and things felt like they were getting back on track. The Mordru arc was easily the best of the era, both writing and art-wise. The Bierbaum stories, married to the Immomen artwork, was incredible. It made me sad to see that title end, as hard as that was to imagine for me at the time.
Add that to their Legionnaires title, and it was some amazing storytelling. To me, Tom and Mary were, to date, the only writers since Paul Levitz who ever really captured the Legion ideal. Legionnaires was everything the Legion should be: funny, heroic, human, youthful and epic, all at the same time. There was no need to reimagine the Legion. They were able to bring the team back to their roots without starting from scratch, which I think is the mistake that has been made by every creative team since then.
I would love to see them tackle the Legion again someday.
WOW-- I couldn't possibly agree more! I agree with every single word.
Our only difference (which is why I edited part of your quote out) is that I rIIIIIlly started to GET INTO the 5YL LSH a bit earlier than you, around issue 25 when the SW6 team showed up. I went LSH-fan-CRAZY at that point.
quote:Originally posted by Jerry: These stories are unique. They couldn't have been written about any other characters - not the JLA, not the Avengers, not the Teen Titans, and certainly not with a team of newly introduced heroes. It had to be the Legion. It was the Legion. It was the story of the adults that the Legion came to be, and I was so proud of how they turned out.
You are SO right; I can't imagine this being stated any more perfectly!
More Tom/Mary/MLLASH trivia:
When LEGIONNAIRES launched, I was a RABID LSH fanatic. I *loved* those early issues!!
Also, I owe Tom and Mary for turning a mild infatuation with Infectious Lass to a full-blown screaming fan-frenzy love.
posted
This poster needs more Tom/Mary/MLLASH trivia!
I remember actually when the Jan/Schvaughn issue came off the stands, though at this point in my life I had never read a LSH comic yet (as I was a pre-teen, Spider-Man fanatic). My Dad said: "Keith Giffen has taken a series with a long history and created a very adult, excellent comic book. I hope you read these one day". My Dad isn't that big a Legion fan, so this was pretty high praise from him. On the other hand, he's a huge Keith Giffen fan, so that rubbed off on me.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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You know while I hated my sexy beloved Officer Erin becoming Sean...I still felt the love between the characters. I didn't want Jan to leave him cause they were still that couple. But it broke my heart to tell the truth. I was like 15 and the girl I loved was a man! (baby--AP)
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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Like Kid Quislet, I had stopped reading the Legion during v. 4, only much earlier, with # 5. (I hated the rewrite of the Legion's history: it destroyed the very foundation of the book, in my view.) So I didn't read most of these issues until a few years ago, and now, thanks to these threads, I get to rediscover them all over again.
My appreciation of them has only grown. I think TM and sometimes K did the best they could in spite of DC's dictates. In many instances, they demolished the boundaries of what super-hero comics were expected to be.
Case in point: I just re-read # 40, which contains marvelous scenes of the older Legionnaires interacting with their young counterparts. Particular favorites:
-- Older Vi telling younger Vi to think for herself (and younger Vi telling Devlin O'Ryan off as a result).
-- The Brainys and Andromedas. When older Brainy callously tells younger Laurel that Valor (her brother, am I correct?) is probably not coming back, it says so much about older Brainy's relationship with "his" Andromeda -- the hurt that must have passed between them. When younger Brainy consoles Laurel, he glances over his shoulder with disgust at his older counterpart. He must be thinking, "I can't believe I turned out to be such a prig!"
-- The tear-jerking scene of older Jo encountering young Tinya. Young Jo really does come off as a dumb jock for not anticipating how his older self might react to seeing the counterpart of the woman he lost. Perhaps younger Jo didn't understand the deepness that his love for Tinya would take on as they matured.
I love stories with this sort of psychological and social complexity. They lend themselves to analysis, interpretation, and otherwise active participation on the part of the reader.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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That Jo/Jo/Tinya scene still brings water to my eyes upon multiple rereads. Tons of great sequences in that issue and others.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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One of the best scenes in the series, in my opinion, was the one at the beginning of the Mordru arc, where Projectra was visiting Val's grave on Shanghalla, and telling him how much his loss still hurt her, even after several years. It was heartbreaking to hear the loss she still felt, and was a testiment to one of the greatest loves in Legion history.
-------------------- Some people are like slinkys: not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you knock them down a flight of stairs
From: Penthouse atop Levitz Hall, LMBP Plaza, Embassy Row, Legion World | Registered: Jul 2003
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Well I agree with Crujectra, Jerry, and Lash!
Not only did they get rid of the history but they got rid of the emotion. This latest Legion appearing in JSA/JLA even under a weak story (well i liked it) we all got caught up on that emotion.
Jerry hit on the head. Only stories that could be told in the Legion. We need that again.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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