posted
If Matthew is the "sage" then I'm the old "thyme"er
I have no objection to seeing some (or all) of the Legionnaires from more recent version brought into the fold. I think it would be fun for example to see Dawnstar and Shikari interacting as teammates ans Gates would be a great counterpoint to this megalomaniacal version of Brainy XS would do a great deal towards perking things ups and I think she and Quislet together would be lots of fun.
That being said, there would be no Monstress, no Gates, no KQ, no Kinetix, and certainly none of Jorge's "hip" Legionnaires were it not for the CLASSIC Legionnaires that came before them. Condo, Chuck, Tenzil and Andrew all brought a great deal to the table and helped shape the Legion, setting the stage that many others later traversed.
They helped create and maintain the fan base that fought and fought and fought to keep the Legion alive, through all its trials and tribulations in the early years when the editors thought that a kid that bounced or ate rocks was stupid. There would not be a Legion of Super Heores today preparing to celebrate a 50th anniversary were it not for the kids with the stupid powers and their die hard fans. Give them their due.
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Condo, Chuck, Tenzil and Andrew all brought a great deal to the table and helped shape the Legion, setting the stage that many others later traversed.
They helped create and maintain the fan base that fought and fought and fought to keep the Legion alive, through all its trials and tribulations in the early years when the editors thought that a kid that bounced or ate rocks was stupid. There would not be a Legion of Super Heores today preparing to celebrate a 50th anniversary were it not for the kids with the stupid powers and their die hard fans. Give them their due.
That's the kind of argument that applies to real people who can appreciate such an honour.
Since we're talking about fictional characters, I'm not going to be swayed by it too much. In fact, hold on:
quote:They helped create and maintain
They. They?! The fictional characters did that? The made-up superheroes took effective action, themselves, to create and maintain a fan base? Pull yourself together.
Let's say it like this:
Many people on this board, including you, are unhappy that some of your favourite characters, who are among DC's most venerable characters, aren't currently appearing in any of DC's comics, even the title that is their traditional and logical home.
That's a valid and reasonable complaint.
But let's not overstate the case. The Silver Age Legion, as a group, has received its due respect and then some. Which is something I can't say about all other eras of the Legion.
posted
As to the subject at hand: the contention that somehow characters named "Bouncing Boy" and "Matter-Eater Lad" are somehow not appropriate for a book which features characters named "Princess Projectra" and "Triplicate Girl" may be somewhat shaky.
Real life story: when Lee found out that there was a character named "Triplicate Girl," he shook his head, saying, "What is she, some kind of super-fast secretary? Can she file forms in triplicate faster than a speeding bullet? Jump in-boxes in a single bound? Is she stronger than a stapler?" After thinking about it, I had to agree that, yes, she was kind of a super-secretary (of course this was the reboot 'Triad' persona I was talking about...)
What's this tangent about?
Oh yes. The whole concept is a little bit silly, y'all. That's kind of what keeps it running.
-------------------- White. A blank page or canvas. His favorite. So... many... possibilities.
From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I agree there is some silliness built into the foundations; even the comparatively-serious (to Silver Age, at least) Levitz era had mid-to-late-20-somethings called "boy" and "girl," and people carrying white dwarf stars around inside Earth's atmosphere.
But there is a threshold - just as in the 70s Lar and Clark could literally fly to and from another galaxy in the same day, contemporary standards and knowledge raise the threshold (no pun intended) for suspension of disbelief to higher levels. Super-bouncing and eating any substance may be cool to kids who grew up in the 60s, and fans who appreciate retro or silliness, but these do not seem to be positive attributes for most readers of contemporary super-hero comic books. I would assume most of us would like a good, current LSH book that sells well enough to remain voable, rather than just reminisce about This era or That era, and I do not see these character as appealing to regular, committed comics people who aren't already buying it. As we have seen, there are literally dozens of characters that have served as Legionnaires over the past 48 (!) years; not all of them have to be kept current and updated.
If Chuck and Tenzil fit into the cartoon (I haven't seen it yet), that is great. I would suggest that the lighter, more youthful orientation of the cartoon is the most (and perhaps only) appropriate venue for those characters.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Super-bouncing and eating any substance may be cool to kids who grew up in the 60s, and fans who appreciate retro or silliness, but these do not seem to be positive attributes for most readers of contemporary super-hero comic books.
No? I suppose heroes that kill adversaries and fight each other portray much more positive attributes to readers today?
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I would assume most of us would like a good, current LSH book that sells well enough to remain voable, rather than just reminisce about This era or That era, and I do not see these character as appealing to regular, committed comics people who aren't already buying it.
Seems to me that this version IS selling well enough to be viable while reminiscing about the Silver Age. It certainly has shown itself to be at least as viable as any version since the original, at least from the sales figures I've seen posted and discussed around here.
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: As we have seen, there are literally dozens of characters that have served as Legionnaires over the past 48 (!) years; not all of them have to be kept current and updated.
Okay, fair enough. You can have Saturn Girl, Brainy, and Projectra back.
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: If Chuck and Tenzil fit into the cartoon (I haven't seen it yet), that is great. I would suggest that the lighter, more youthful orientation of the cartoon is the most (and perhaps only) appropriate venue for those characters.
I would suggest that you may be wrong. That cartoon is already bringing in new fans as we've seen around here on Legion World and will likely see in sales of the book.
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: Matter Eater Lad has one of the worst names I've ever seen...and powers. If they retooled him called him Devourer...gave him energy absorption powers...fine.
The ability to point-blank destroy any material object in the universe sounds pretty impressive to me. Hell, Wolverine's practically based around a lesser version of the same ability. Destroying the Miracle Machine, wrecking the Atomic Axe, mutilating Pulsar Stargrave...Tenzil'd be a plot device unto himself if he wasn't underused. Certainly his power ranks well above being, say, an ordinary girl who turns into three ordinary girls.
As for his name--if he wasn't named something funny, it would show that he didn't know his power was funny, which would be really not cool.
quote:But I am glad he isn't bringing things that don't translate well these days.
I doubt I represent the target audience of the book--possibly of any book, but I was a teenage fan who got into the Legion right around Zero Hour. I had no knowledge of, and therefore no nostalgia for, any earlier versions. Nonetheless, as I dug out back issues the Matter-Eater Lads from the 5YL era--both of them--became by far my favorite characters. Precisely because they had a silly-sounding power, and they knew they did, and they didn't worry about trying to impress anybody with it. In fact, they apparently understood the basic silliness of the Legion concept: a dozen or so teenagers with assorted bizarre abilities form a club to save the galaxy? The M-E Lads provided a metacommentary on the whole idea and the general superhero experience that I thought was very cool. They were like the LSH version of Deadpool.
And then, looking back at the Adventure era, even a more seriously-portrayed M-E Lad has the virtue of being pretty much the archetypal Legionnaire. He has a power--a unique power, unlike the "Kryptonian-minus" powersets of T-Wolf and Ferro and Blok and Kent Shakespeare--which is utterly useless about 95% of the time and utterly critical the other 5%. Who better to have on the comicverse's most diversity-championing superteam?
From: Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Super-bouncing and eating any substance may be cool to kids who grew up in the 60s, and fans who appreciate retro or silliness, but these do not seem to be positive attributes for most readers of contemporary super-hero comic books.
I've never seen a character who can eat anything be rejected by the readers--mostly because other than Tenzil I've never seen such a character period--but Speedball seemed to be quite popular on the bouncing front.
quote:I would suggest that the lighter, more youthful orientation of the cartoon is the most (and perhaps only) appropriate venue for those characters.
If the cartoon is popular, perhaps a lighter and more youthful orientation could be appropriate to the comic as well. Particularly in a comic which is currently focusing on the issue of youth.
Nonetheless, I'm not all that anxious to bring in M-E Lad while Waid's writing. He does humor very well, but it's sitcom-style humor, not the absurdist style you need for Tenzil's personality.
Bouncing Boy I think he'd do just fine with, though. It's not like he had problems writing the Flash, who was good friends with a fat man who could inhale and puke out unlimited quantities of material....
From: Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Vee: Condo could be a powerhouse, if the writer understood how truly remarkable his ability to affect chemical reactions can be.
Unfortunately, by the time there were postboot writers who really wanted to play with that, they handed it off to Kid Quantum...
From: Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Vee: Condo could be a powerhouse, if the writer understood how truly remarkable his ability to affect chemical reactions can be.
Unfortunately, by the time there were postboot writers who really wanted to play with that, they handed it off to Kid Quantum...
Sadly, you are very correct.
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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It was with sarcasm that I used the word hip. But I am sure el Valenciano Emerald Empress can explain what hip is if need be. Go ahead do it in spanish if need be...atleast I know Vee would understand.
I was also kidding about how Tenz should rip out throats with his teeth. This was because he was compared to a lion, etc.
Again I have no problem with Tenzil as a character. His codename and powers...yes. You might as well put a guy that has fart powers. I loved Tenz in v4. But the atmosphere of that book made it work. Just like Grant Morrisson's All Star Superman can make BB and MEL work. This book I don't think so. If Tenz had a tweak in powers I would love to see him. And heck the name Matter Eater Lad wouldn't be so bad if they actually made fun of it. btw, the names Princess Projectra and Triplicate Girl I also despise.
For the record I love Chuck as well...the character. I liked him as the Legion sidekick in the last boot. Sure make him chunky/fat whatever. But the part of having him inflate to a beach ball? Geez. Silicone Dream, Speedball doesn't inflate to a giant beach ball.
Yes I guess all comics are silly. But there are degrees and personally I don't like the more silly things. More importantly I think these characters put off more people than they may attract. Sure if the book is geared towards children I don't have a problem. Personally I hope both characters are part of the animated book.
Also I apologize for all of those I made angry. You ofcourse have a right to call for any character you want. I just love the Legion and think some of these more obscure/silly characters are more of a put off to other readers. I grew up with a Legion that was the #1 or #2 book at DC at the time...and I liked it. And I usually like the higher selling books cause it seems it has the most mass appeal to readers. Imagine that. I don't want the Legion to be a sub-culture of a sub-culture of a sub-culture. I want them in the forefront.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Super-bouncing and eating any substance may be cool to kids who grew up in the 60s, and fans who appreciate retro or silliness, but these do not seem to be positive attributes for most readers of contemporary super-hero comic books.
No? I suppose heroes that kill adversaries and fight each other portray much more positive attributes to readers today?
No offense, Vee, but that comes across as lame as the argument that allowing gay marriages opens the door to marriages with animals. There are plenty of non-lethal heroes that fit modern tastes - the entire current LSH comic lineup for instance. My point was that not all characters hold up over time to changing tastes, and I can't see BB or MEL helping sales with anyone but already-existing Silver Age LSH fans - and they are already either buying the book, or have tuned out modern LSH (and maybe comics in general) as "not 'my' legion" - are they really the core marketing group to try to lure back?
quote:Originally posted by Vee:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I would assume most of us would like a good, current LSH book that sells well enough to remain voable, rather than just reminisce about This era or That era, and I do not see these character as appealing to regular, committed comics people who aren't already buying it.
Seems to me that this version IS selling well enough to be viable while reminiscing about the Silver Age. It certainly has shown itself to be at least as viable as any version since the original, at least from the sales figures I've seen posted and discussed around here.
Yes. Would BB or MEL really help sales? or possibly even hurt sales? The era when LSH sold the best - mid 70s to late 80s - featured MEL very little, and BB mostly as a former/reserve member.
quote:Originally posted by Vee:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: If Chuck and Tenzil fit into the cartoon (I haven't seen it yet), that is great. I would suggest that the lighter, more youthful orientation of the cartoon is the most (and perhaps only) appropriate venue for those characters.
I would suggest that you may be wrong. That cartoon is already bringing in new fans as we've seen around here on Legion World and will likely see in sales of the book.[/QB]
true enough. but if the regular book becomes more like the comic, why have two books? Why should those of us who favor other overlooked characters be subject to BB and MEL in both books, rather than having some variety?
Between the Silver-ish aspects of the current series and the cartoon, Silver fans have plenty of things they can call their own.
But fans of various eras of characters from the mid-70s to mid-00s have nada.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: [qb] Super-bouncing and eating any substance may be cool to kids who grew up in the 60s, and fans who appreciate retro or silliness, but these do not seem to be positive attributes for most readers of contemporary super-hero comic books.
I've never seen a character who can eat anything be rejected by the readers--mostly because other than Tenzil I've never seen such a character period--but Speedball seemed to be quite popular on the bouncing front.
I'm not very familiar with Speedball - I recognize the name, never read a story with him. He had his own series for a while and later was part of the New Warriors? Is that him? How long did either last? Is he a beloved, missed, or reoccuring character today? I ask because I don't know.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Vee: Condo could be a powerhouse, if the writer understood how truly remarkable his ability to affect chemical reactions can be.
Unfortunately, by the time there were postboot writers who really wanted to play with that, they handed it off to Kid Quantum...
Sadly, you are very correct.
I respect your opinion, but I offer mine only as a contrast, not to belittle: to me, KQ was a far better character, and I am glad we had her instead of a revised CK. To me, CK was the equivalent of a generic original ST red-shirt. I never felt we were given enough to really care about the character. Any CK/KQ debate, to me, is like saying one of those misc. red-shirts should have been revived for ST:TNG instead of developing Geordie or Dr. Crusher.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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XS would do a great deal towards perking things ups and I think she and Quislet together would be lots of fun.
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