posted
Joe, I found your Legion Movies thread here at LegionWorld. Everytime I come here, I find something I hadn't seen before. The poster is terrific.
I totally see your point about a family member living in denial. In fact, that's precisely what I'd have liked to see explored if the story was able to go on. I've written/sketched out my own fanfic about Imra actually confronting the issue. In fact, I've considered several versions. In one she's very angry and leaves him and takes the kids to Quarrantine to all be together without Garth. In another, she allows a Titanian therapy to guide her mind into accepting the news (wouldn't that be nice today?). In another, she goes the route Fat Cramer suggests, where she takes the spiritual approach, emphasizing love and forgiveness. Obviously, I've though about this a lot and have tried to find ways to reconcile it. I've also taken the stance that Imra did indeed know it was Proty all along, and went with it, and kept the secret, but still found herself falling in love with him and accepting the marriage proposal. There was that story in, I think, #236, where they went to Titan to get help in figuring out if leaving the Legion was the right thing to do. I've told myself that that was when she was able to accept Proty as Garth.
I want to acknowledge Tromium Crystal's post about this, too, because the retcon issues brought up there were quite important.
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: deanlegion, this is exactly what I mean about subverting character continuity and contradicting common sense. Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona. The near-omniscient Darkseid targeted him and his family as his personal victims but never sensed that Garth was someone other than he claimed to be. Garth had a nervous breakdown and still no Proty emerged, nor did his telepathic wife see anything alien when she entered his subconscious. Neither his sister nor his brother even suspected that something was amiss (despite the retcon dialog you quoted). Finally, never in the 30 years prior to this "revelation" had Garth ever done, said or thought anything that even remotely suggested that an inhuman mind had possessed his body.
In other words, the Bierbaums deliberately sabotaged the efforts of previous creators for shock value, turning heroes into liars in order to titillate jaded Legion fans with unexpected twists. They did not care about the characters we came to love and admire. There was nothing "clever" about it because it made not an iota of sense. And don't get me started on their equally absurd treatment of Sun Boy. Imo, the Bierbaums were a canker sore on Legion continuity. I agree with your assessment that the reboot, for all its problems, came not a moment too soon.
You're right that it made no sense, and all the other evidence you've cited proves it. I guess I'm most willing to give on the Imra aspect. That she either knew and made peace with it, or so staunchly denied it that there was NO way he'd come right out and tell her. The most frustrating thing for me is to try and figure out a way to make it make sense, and I'm finding that impossible. Still, it's canon (Dean ducks and runs from the continuity patrol), so I accept it. Proty comes out a deceiving, lying sneak no matter how he managed to keep the secret all those years.
posted
My theory: It's been a while since I read the LL/Proty storyline (I don't delve back to my V4 issues very often), but could it be that Garth's personality was somehow revived and transferred into Proty? This would in effect make him still Garth but in a protoplasmic body. Thinking as Garth, he would be inclined to believe his form was human, thus would not think to change forms as Proty would. This would also "fool" Imra, as she would read him as her Garth as well. His electric powers would be mental based as well which allowed him to retain his powers upon revival (this would also link to the mental illness he had during his term as leader). Only later in life when the Validus Virus affected him would it be recognized (by himself included) what had actually happened. This would explain how Imra and Garth remained true to each other thru the years, and preserve the integrity of Proty as a self-sacrificing hero.
-------------------- "My dance card was getting fuller than a contestant's at a Jandan shurg-off." - Exnihil, The Lost Klordny
From: Frederick, MD | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Canon it may be, but as of 1994 Proty/Garth, Shvaughn/Sean and the other idiocies perpetrated by the Bierbuams are no more true than Clark Kent's identity as Superboy. It's just too bad we can't grant an exception to the Shooter and Levitz stories, and all the other wonderful things about the pre-boot Legion that should have survived the great rift of Zero Hour.
Funny how controversial a little dose of Profem can be.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
By-the-by, I don't think it's been mentioned yet in these posts, but Color Kid was the first patient of the "Gender Reversal Germ" idea of Giffen in a story where the Subs and Tenzil Kem take on Pulsar Stargrave.
As can be expected, the Subs are again abused (Giffen's favorite doormats) and a once noble villian is reduced to farcical pulp.
-------------------- "My dance card was getting fuller than a contestant's at a Jandan shurg-off." - Exnihil, The Lost Klordny
From: Frederick, MD | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: deanlegion, this is exactly what I mean about subverting character continuity and contradicting common sense. Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona. The near-omniscient Darkseid targeted him and his family as his personal victims but never sensed that Garth was someone other than he claimed to be. Garth had a nervous breakdown and still no Proty emerged, nor did his telepathic wife see anything alien when she entered his subconscious. Neither his sister nor his brother even suspected that something was amiss (despite the retcon dialog you quoted). Finally, never in the 30 years prior to this "revelation" had Garth ever done, said or thought anything that even remotely suggested that an inhuman mind had possessed his body.
In other words, the Bierbaums deliberately sabotaged the efforts of previous creators for shock value, turning heroes into liars in order to titillate jaded Legion fans with unexpected twists. They did not care about the characters we came to love and admire. There was nothing "clever" about it because it made not an iota of sense. And don't get me started on their equally absurd treatment of Sun Boy. Imo, the Bierbaums were a canker sore on Legion continuity. I agree with your assessment that the reboot, for all its problems, came not a moment too soon.
You're right that it made no sense, and all the other evidence you've cited proves it. I guess I'm most willing to give on the Imra aspect. That she either knew and made peace with it, or so staunchly denied it that there was NO way he'd come right out and tell her. The most frustrating thing for me is to try and figure out a way to make it make sense, and I'm finding that impossible. Still, it's canon (Dean ducks and runs from the continuity patrol), so I accept it. Proty comes out a deceiving, lying sneak no matter how he managed to keep the secret all those years.
UH, I'm pretty sure that comment by TC is not true. I've recently read through the late 200's up to TMK and recall I think Darkseid saying Garth was not what he seemed. I'll have to look again but maybe someone else also remembers.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona.
One interesting point is that the Luck Lords story was based on the notion that Garth's death would cause some sort of cosmic disaster. If we accept that Garth really died and it was Proty all along, then the Luck Lords should have gotten what they wanted.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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Blockade Boy, Darkseid appeared IIRC on three separate occasions before the Bierbaums came on board: The Great Darkness Saga (including v1 Annual #3), v3 Annual #2 and The Quiet Darkness story of 1991. I've read all but the last and recall no such reference. If you don't find it in The Quiet Darkness (a story that doesn't appear to include Garth), I can't imagine where it would be.
quote:Originally posted by Tromium Crystal: Good one, EDE. I'll add it to the list.
Blockade Boy, Darkseid appeared IIRC on three separate occasions before the Bierbaums came on board: The Great Darkness Saga (including v1 Annual #3), v3 Annual #2 and The Quiet Darkness story of 1991. I've read all but the last and recall no such reference. If you don't find it in The Quiet Darkness (a story that doesn't appear to include Garth), I can't imagine where it would be.
I keep telling myself to take notes on things I notice on re-reads. It was definitly one of the biggee bad guys making comment about Garth that made me think he knew about Proty. It's one of those one-liners that means nothing if when you read through the first time. Kind of like now, I've just been reading the issues where Mon-El just won't die and no-one can explain. Of course, we all know why because of what happens in future issues.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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