posted
One other nuance about whether this Legion is 'original' or not:
As I've said, I've already decided that Johns's Legion is not the original Legion, but a new Legion version strongly based on the original. I am reading the stories about them with that assumption, and expect to enjoy them on that level.
There are, of course, people who will be reading these stories who are assuming that Johns's Legion is exactly (+- details) the original Legion. These people may expect an original-Legion-type story. I don't know what's coming, but I think there's a significant chance that whatever story is coming is not going to be an original-Legion-type story. And if so, there's a nonzero chance that these fans aren't going to like it.
That'd be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? The guy who insists that this isn't the original Legion ends up liking them better than the people who insist that it is?
But at the end of the day, the first issue of John's Action story was very enjoyable to read IMO. If he keeps up the level of quality that I've come to expect from him, that's all that matters.
I'm not quite sure what else could be done to make someone who doesn't see this as the 'original Legion' actually change their minds. Which is fine. As each year has gone by for every character in comics, things have been tweaked in such a way that the continuity will never be 100% strait anymore. Batman from the 1950's equally Batman today is a long jump for many fans to make too. That's probably more of a good quality for comic books in general than a bad one.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: One other nuance about whether this Legion is 'original' or not:
As I've said, I've already decided that Johns's Legion is not the original Legion, but a new Legion version strongly based on the original. I am reading the stories about them with that assumption, and expect to enjoy them on that level.
There are, of course, people who will be reading these stories who are assuming that Johns's Legion is exactly (+- details) the original Legion. These people may expect an original-Legion-type story. I don't know what's coming, but I think there's a significant chance that whatever story is coming is not going to be an original-Legion-type story. And if so, there's a nonzero chance that these fans aren't going to like it.
That'd be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? The guy who insists that this isn't the original Legion ends up liking them better than the people who insist that it is?
Just one of the many ways things might turn out.
Assuming that people who feel this is the "original" Legion want stories exactly like the ones published in the 60s, 70s or 80s, both in art style and storytelling, then I'm sure they'll be disappointed because it's 2007 now.
I haven't seen anyone who clamors for the old Legion and likes the one in Action say anything that would corroborate such an assumption.
An example would be the change in costumes. Some people like them, others don't. Some people would have liked to see the Legionnaires wear those "classic" costumes a little longer, others don't care about what costume a character they love wears. If people who consider it the "original" Legion wanted an exact copy "preserved in formaldehyde" of every last detail of the old Legion, they'd be screeching in rage about the change in costumes. But they don't.
There are those who don't care whether it's the original Legion or not as long as it's a good Legion but they are in another "category", so to speak, so the assumption they'll be disappointed doesn't apply to them.
It's people who *don't* think it's the original Legion anyway and hate it, who are very vocal about things like the costumes or old characterization or every little detail that doesn't conform to their image of what the original Legion was like. They are the ones who want the "preserved in formaldehyde" Legion, not the ones who accept it as either the original - and like it - or as a very close and very good version of the original. And like it.
I'd like to make clear that I don't feel you are one of those who would only accept this Legion as the original only in the "formaldehyde version", Matthew. You are doing a very good and precise, scholarly analysis of continuity matters etc which I believe is very valuable (and fun to read}, regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with you.
[ November 18, 2007, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
That's not quite what I was saying. I don't think there are too many old-school Legion fans out there who can't handle any kind of change at all. Some, maybe, but not many.
What I was thinking about more was that there was a possibility that the specific new direction Johns takes this Legion in would be one that feels like a violation of what the Legion's all about to such fans. As in, they can handle change okay, but don't like this change.
For instance: Johns has a reputation for injecting his comic books with unnecessary gore. What if, and I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, there's a scene featuring the bloody decapitation of Bouncing Boy? (That's probably a bad example; it'd probably put everybody off the book.)
One thing I haven't said is what I personally think of the changes Johns and Meltzer have made. I like Night Girl as a Legionnaire; took them long enough. I like Wildfire's new look in Action but don't like Dawny's; to me, Dawnstar should be in her original costume forever. Things like the flight rings and the nature of Dreamy's powers don't bother me a bit, and I like the Legion's role as the champions of diversity, but I think the Wildfire = Red Tornado thing is a vortex of stupid that will consume everything in its path.
posted
I think the reason this debate has taken on such a life of its own is that the idea of bringing back the Preboot Legion (especially the Levitz Legion) is one that really resonates with those of us who were fans when those stories were published.
I can fully see the desire to have as authentic a restoration as possible, but I do not see how it is possible (at a minimum, given Superboy legalities); at some point, you have to contradict something that came before (even if it's only End of an Era or Legion on the Run). So if you start conceding some ground (and if you don't, I cannot see how one could ever be satisfied with any restoration) for legal issues, for adaptation into current continuity, or for what one's departure point(s) from the original timelie is/are, then a few changes for creative purposes do not seem so bad.
I also concede that what we have seen so far does not currently seem 100 percent self-consistent (let alone with Preboot), but my own expectations about any super-hero comic allow room for a certain amount of fluctuation. Even each era of Preboot had its hare of minor (and major) adjustments.
While I have previously been critical of the use of two standards, one for Johns and one for Threeboot, I can accept that any attempt to recreate Preboot could automatically raise expectations higher than the bar Threeboot has set (but accepting that in turn would discredit any greater or equivalent claim to "original" status that Threeboot supporters sometimes allege).
How original does "original" have to be? Is how a story hyped more important than the story itself?
All I have asked is that the Johns version be accepted (or not) on its own merits (potentially beyond Johns' own story, if other creators also use them), and we let the story play out before being dismissive, before jumping to conclusions about its longterm viability (or the desirability thereof).
I have long been an advocate that the supporters of each and every era/aspect of LSH that has attracted fans be accorded due respect. I do not see the repeated dismissal of people who are appreciating the Johns Legion as only being "nostalgic" for something "dishonest" as any sort of reciprocal acceptance.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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I have never said, about Johns's Legion, "I want the original Legion back and this is an inferior substitute." My stance is more, "Here is another version of the Legion. They're calling it the original Legion, but I don't think that scans. Still, let's see what they've got."
(Which is not to say I don't want the original Legion back. I do want them back. Also the reboot Legion! Also, if they're being considered separate, the 5YL Legion.
And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")
quote:How original does "original" have to be?
It doesn't have to be original at all. Who's forcing it to be original? (Here's where language trips us up. Of course we want it to be 'original', as in, an original story. But we don't necessarily need it to be 'original', as in, the original Legion.)
DC can write the Legion however they want, write the stories however they want. If they're good I'll like them. If they want to use the actual original Legion, that's great. If they want to use a different Legion, that's great too. More power to them.
Just don't do one and tell me you're doing the other. I get ticked off if I think someone is trying to snow me.
posted
"And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")"
Well, then you had better be prepared to do about 50 years worth of research to make sure you get EVERY LAST THING right to make sure you don't contradict anything.
-------------------- Watching television is not an activity.
From: Freeville, NY | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Malvolio: "And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")"
Well, then you had better be prepared to do about 50 years worth of research to make sure you get EVERY LAST THING right to make sure you don't contradict anything.
Nah. The important thing is to make sure you start at the same point the previous run ended, for that continuity. Then you just do new stuff and refer to the past as little as you can get away with. That's been one problem with the Legion in recent years: too much emphasis on the past and not enough on just telling good new stories.
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above.
As I said above, no-one thought the differences between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis history didn't make the Legion appearing V3, after the Crisis, the originals.
So why do the changes now, as compared to the changes then, cause people to doubt their "authenticity"?
That's a great point. The changes to Superboy from the original to pocket-universe Superboy didn't make most of us think the post-crisis Legion was different even though it was.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Mon-El, even though that image did make it into Countdown, the stories themsleves state that none of the League/Society members know who a Legion is and thus contridicts it being apart of "New Earth" history. And Karate Kid has given no indication that this is his second trip to the present.
So, either it's crappy writing or crappy editing. Take your pick.
And I (personally) don't see anything mentioned above as "anal retentive continity." I see it as a history of a team which Johns and TPTB are claiming are now apart of the Legion that is appearing in Action Comics when their "good stories" are proving that it is not.
Heh, I agree with you. It's the same with Crisis. They think they covered all their bases and then..."oh, yeah...that".
Since Supes had a foggy memory maybe the Legion sent Cham back on a Espionage mission to the 20th century to erase various memories.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dain: Well...it does seem like some of us think of this as a "second coming", doesn't it? I definitely don't want to bash either the Legion in Action or any other version or era.
I don't see it as the second coming. BUT so far it appears it's a Legion I will be more interested in and hopefully enjoy than any other legion work in the last 15 years?
It's a Legion I like. It has elements of a Legion I want. Is it the "original"? No. Do I apologize for liking it? No. And just because I have a different opinion I won't apologize. Is it nostalgic? I guess but I see more in it than just nostalgia.
I mean the current Legion is nostalgic of the Adventure Legion? Or ZH Legion?
btw, for those that are excited about this Legion...the next issue comes out this week right?!
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
This entire debate reminds me of Neil Gaiman's wonderful passage in the Sandman issue "The Hunt" when the granddaughter takes her grandfather to task for continuity errors in the bedtime story he is telling her. And then he comes back with this: "Don't trust the storyteller. Only trust the story." (Of course, the next time she interrupts him, he says "Listen, bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. I love you but if you interrupt me again so help me I'll tear out your throat with my teeth." And she meekly says "Sorry, Grandpa." I love Sandman.)
The point is that continuity for DC comics exists to be broken. If it serves the story, great. If not, then feggedaboudit. And we know this. We live in a DCU where the heroes have forgotten completely about the Zero Hour Legion assisting in The Final Night. Even though The Final Night totally happened, because Parallax gave his life to save Earth and then he became the Spectre and then in "Emerald Rebirth" or what-the-frak-ever the title was became Hal Jordan, Green Lantern Stud again. And this all happened, because didn't Geoff Johns write it? It must be true!!! I mean, isn't that... what happened??
Where the Flash family have completely forgotten that an XS ever existed. Where Superman's Time and Time Again storyline obviously never happened.
I know, I know... Infinite Crisis restarted everything again and all the continuities were fixed, Superboy-Prime's behind bars, the 52 worlds are all out there and if there's a continuity you can dream about, just wish for it and it's on one of those 52 worlds. Blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah.
Let's look back through time. This is a DCU where, upon (the first) Crisis ending, Wonder Woman was reset. She was never an original member of the JLA. She came to man's world for the very first time post-Crisis. Except for the fact that Donna Troy was a member of the Teen Titans for years before these events, and made constant mention to WW and Hippolyta and Hera and whatnot.
Kara Zor-El had a funeral in the middle of Crisis on Infinite Earths and EVERYBODY was there and EVERYBODY remembered it and EVERYBODY cried and was very sad. Except nobody remembered it when Matrix came to Earth and took on Supergirl's form and then merged with Linda Danvers and then became an earth-bound angel and then Kara Zor-El came to earth for the FIRST time, except for the fact that she didn't, because there was a funeral, and at the end of Crisis, Superman mourned Kara, and it totally happened, because Harbinger recorded it all (complete with pretty George Perez pics) and Harbinger showed up as a major player in Millenium a couple years later. And if you can't trust Harbinger, who can you trust?
Of course, Zero Hour fixed all of this. Except it didn't, because Superboy-Prime, Superman-1, Alexander Luthor, and Lois Lane-1 were all hanging out in the wings. It's like a continuity poker game. "I'll see your Zero Hour and raise it one Earth-1 Power Girl! Dang it, I can't beat that hand." Zero Hour folds. Power Girl singlehandedly defeats the Zero Hour Legion for all time without even raising a finger. (It's true, if you think about it.)
And now the 52 universes come along with the promise to make it all somehow better. "If you can dream it, it's there!" Ooh, sparkly! Except for the fact that it's all smoke and mirrors, people. The DC universe exists in a completely delirious state of unreality.
There are all these trappings of Crisis(es) and Superboy-Primes and Khufus and Earth-1s and Power Girls and Psycho-Pirates and Infinite Earths that give fans stuff to chew on, but it is all complete and total illusion, no more substantial than one of Projectra's illusions. Oh, um, sorry... Lighting Saga Sensor Girl's illusions.
In future posts, I will endeavor to explain why this state of affairs is actually okay, though, and why this entire debate is, while diverting, ultimately no more substantial than the, um, "continuity" which is at its core. And finally, why the LSH is a special problem for the DCU as it exists and what sort of solution set may be applicable.
My apologies for the run-on sentences. I was trying to comment on the laughable state of DC's "continuity" with some laughable grammar.
Kid Prime's DC Point #1. Nothing really exists in the DCU.
[ November 19, 2007, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Kid Prime ]
-------------------- White. A blank page or canvas. His favorite. So... many... possibilities.
From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think on an intellectual level, you can always find some elements that will spoil your fun. For me, the return of the "kind of classic" Legion is an emotional matter: To see these characters interact in the current DCU after 14 years of "other" Legions I could not get that fond of is a true delight.
To see the new cover of Action #862 with the Subs gives me a huge thrill. And every inconsistency to the classic Legion - even the strange missing of Chemical King himself - I can blame on Crisis, Zero Hour or whatever continuity bashing there was.
So I love it on an emotional level and just explain the problems away. Not a scientific approach, but I can totally enjoy the story that way.
By the way: The way of storytelling changes over the ages. Hardly anybody would like to read Adventure type stories nowadays, Bates or especially Conway would be attacked for their simplistic writing. So what we should expect is a Levitz-style writing with a modern twist (and changes to the original continuity will be added if only to add some spice to it all - like it or not...)
I think Johns can do it - he did great on the JSA already...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
To be completely honest, my cynicism regarding the Johns Legion probably has as much to do with jadedness over the whole post-IC/post-52/post-whatever DCU as anything else.
Part of the appeal of the Legion for me in most versions has always been its relative isolation from the rest of the DCU. So even though I could've cared less about the rest of the post-Zero Hour DCU, I could still read and enjoy the post-Zero Hour Legion because their storyline was pretty much independent (and it's probably no coincidence that I stopped reading them during the whole "Team 20" arc).
What Johns has given us is a Legion that's very much integrated into the whole "Crisis on Every Other Tuesday" state of affairs in the mainstream DCU. Honestly, I have very little interest in the Legion as explorers of the current multiverse, where Star Boy hung out in the Kingdom Come universe for awhile before coming to New Earth and joining the New Earth JSA*, so on and so forth. For people who like the more "integrated universe" approach to comics generally, this is probably going to bother them much less.
Generally, I don't have nearly as much faith in Johns as many of you seem to. He and Waid seem to come from very much the same school of writing (and one that I don't particularly care for), which is why it seems a bit strange that so many people seem to want to pit them against one another. Honestly, I was pretty surprised that so many people who have been critical of Waid's run on the Legion seemed to embrace the Lightning Saga storyline, when it seemed to suffer from many of the same flaws that have made the threeboot seem so lackluster for so long.
*Nota bene: I could care less about the JSA as a training camp for New Earth legacy heroes or whatever as well. The JSA belongs on Earth-2 and closely tied to WW2, dammit!
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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