quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: Yes. Which is part of my point. I *shouldn't* be able to gather that much material from just those few appearances. The fact that I can is itself an indicator of how freely Johns and Meltzer have adapted the material.
How many are there? I can think of only three, all explainable.
Wildfire/Red Tornado, Night Girl a member, Karate Kid being alive.
-------------------- Paul Newell Titan President
From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Here's what I can think of. I'll separate them into categories to make it easier for us to consider them.
1. Stuff That Happened Offstage Between Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Lightning Saga (this category is included mostly for completeness) - Karate Kid's retroactive survival - Night Girl's possible Legion membership - was Star Boy readmitted to the Legion after killing Kenz Nuhor? - apparently Sun Boy's missing? - it seems that Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy rejoined the Legion at some point
2. Previously Unrevealed Details About Legionnaires (also included mostly for completeness) - Projectra has two hearts - Dream Girl's power is related to 'the Dreaming' from Sandman - Star Boy's mental illness - Dawnstar possibly attracted to women (this should maybe go in Category 1)
3. Details Which Contradict Previously Known Information - flight rings made of nth metal - Wildfire being somehow the same person as Red Tornado
4. Smallville Continuity Problems - to the best of our knowledge, Superboy not as active a hero now as he was in original continuity - current Luthor never Superboy's arch-enemy and therefore not a Legion adversary
5. Legal Stuff We Just Have To Cut DC a Break On - he used to be called 'Superboy'
6. Legion Membership Problems - no Supergirl - if Polar Boy and the Sensor Girl costume have statues in the Fortress of Solitude, why not Tellus, Quislet and Magnetic Kid? - no Tyroc statue in Fortress - no Chemical King statue in Fortress; Chemical King not represented in group shot in Action #858
7. Big Picture - distance of decades between Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986 and now provides natural discontinuity between eras - original Legion continuity led seamlessly into post-Crisis era, and somewhat less seamlessly into 5YL and Glorithverse era; at least some of that material is obviously 'original Legion' storytelling, but is not included in this new continuity
8. Thematic Stuff - Johns, through the premise of the Action arc and Red Tornado's description in JSA #5, is casting this Legion specifically as the champions of unity and diversity against xenophobia. While the original Legion was certainly in favour of unity and diversity, and against xenophobia, this was not, historically, a prominent part of what they were all about. It's a better description of the reboot Legion. - the transition to the post-Crisis and Glorithverse eras were full of familiar details to try to preserve, as much as possible, the history of the Legion, and to indicate that DC intended them to be continuations of the original Legion. The Lightning Saga was full of unfamiliar details, which did not suggest such an intention; rather, they left the impression that this was something new.
Did I forget anything?
As I said, a lot of those things all by themselves would not lead me to conclude that this isn't the original Legion. But if you pile them all together, and consider how little screen time this Legion has had to accumulate all these points... I have to conclude that they're something new.
posted
Matthew, believe me when I say that I haven't read and re-read a Legion comic as closely as the Lightning Saga issues and Action #858 in years. A lot of what you, seemingly, consider "evidence" is:
1. Explainable "off panel" 2. Little retcons or inconsistencies which are a dime a dozen in comic books. 3. Discrepancies which may, or may not, be explained after the Legion storyline in Action and Countdown are completed.
I could give you examples of all of the above but I'm sure you already know them.
Even major retcons like Karate Kid alive could have occurred at some future point from where this Legion "diverges" from the original continuity. It's not like character "resurrection" is rare in comics, is it?
If there is one major "bump" that suggests this Legion may not be the "classic" one is Supergirl's role in both Legions. That won't be explained easily. The fact that this Legion's origin is almost identical (as far as circumstances allow) to the original's one is a major evidence - but not conclusive - that this Legion is a continuation of the classic one on a divergent timeline and no less "original" than Glorithverse. This is actual evidence, hard evidence, that points to...a certain direction. I don't think one can be objective about it if he/she tosses it aside as unimportant.
You'll notice that I didn't use DC's claims that it IS the original Legion but only evidence from the comics themselves. Let's also keep in mind, all of us, that if a majority of fans believe this is the original Legion and/or they love it on its own merits (or hate it because of its own faults), then, for all intents and purposes it IS the original Legion with a "restored" continuity, or a divergent timeline or anything one wants to call it. If new and old readers love it, then it's *their* Legion. In that case proving or disproving anything is a moot point.
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dain: Matthew, believe me when I say that I haven't read and re-read a Legion comic as closely as the Lightning Saga issues and Action #858 in years. A lot of what you, seemingly, consider "evidence" is:
1. Explainable "off panel" 2. Little retcons or inconsistencies which are a dime a dozen in comic books. 3. Discrepancies which may, or may not, be explained after the Legion storyline in Action and Countdown are completed.
I think our posts crossed so I'll let my post above be the answer to this. Basically, some of my evidence is the kind you describe and some is not.
quote:The fact that this Legion's origin is almost identical (as far as circumstances allow) to the original's one is a major evidence - but not conclusive - that this Legion is a continuation of the classic one on a divergent timeline and no less "original" than Glorithverse.
I think Glorithverse is a good comparison. However: 1. the Glorithverse stories got there first, and 2. the Glorithverse stories were published pretty much immediately consecutively the post-Crisis stories (not quite the same point)
If we were arguing the validity of Johns's Legion, that would be one thing. But we're not. I gladly concede its validity. I only dispute its status as 'original Legion' or not 'original Legion', a much more narrow and strictly technical point.
quote:This is actual evidence, hard evidence, that points to...a certain direction. I don't think one can be objective about it if he/she tosses it aside as unimportant.
It's not unimportant; it just doesn't answer the points I raise.
quote:Let's also keep in mind, all of us, that if a majority of fans believe this is the original Legion and/or they love it on its own merits (or hate it because of its own faults), then, for all intents and purposes it IS the original Legion with a "restored" continuity, or a divergent timeline or anything one wants to call it.
No. These are not matters of opinion; these are matters of facts as established in published material. The definition of the word 'original' is not subject to a popularity contest.
quote: If new and old readers love it, then it's *their* Legion. In that case proving or disproving anything is a moot point.
Now this I agree with. If you like Johns's Legion, why should you care whether I say it's original or not? I think it's a point worth making, but those are my priorities, not yours.
Seriously, it's a very sensible approach: anyone who says to me, "Matthew, I don't care if it's the original Legion or not; I like it and I want to enjoy the comics," has my full and unqualified support. After all, what's it matter if it's the original Legion or not? Story's the same either way. It's only people like me who are really into mapping the details out who care about this.
Oh, and also the people who think that if it's not the original Legion then it isn't any good. They care too. But probably nobody like that really exists.
posted
A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above. Which is fine for them. But, I fear they will all be extremely disappointed once this Action-Arc is over and we get even more evidence of just how different it is to the "original."
The rest of us, knowing that it's different going in, will be able to handle it better.
Please add to #6 - - no Jimmy Olsen as a member - doubtful that Pete Ross (since no "Superboy") or Lana Lang as members
I'll also add that Karate Kid's original time-trip now seems to not exist as well. Any trip the Legion took to the 20th century especially those involving/helping Superman (which are numerous) seems gone. The original JLA/JSA/LSH team-up, Brave and the Bold and DCCP appearances are wiped out as well.
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot...
Oh, trust me, I don't find it hard at all
I'm sitting watching this debate with somewhere between dispassion and mild amusement - while preboot variations don't have that special "never ever EVER" place in my brain the "threeboot" does, I don't really care about them + it's Johns + I really don't care for current DC in general.
But, execution notwithstanding, it seems as original as the Post-Crisis/Glorithverse LoSHes - less so than the former in a lot of ways, if it rewrote the origin. Which, if applied in a relatively similar way to post-ZH, would probably make me not bother before even checking the execution, but...
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
I'll add Dev-Em fiasco to the "evidence". (i did earlier and you guys left it out!)
Wildfire using Red Tornado's body? I hate it but anyways that could've happened off panel post-Crisis or Magic Wars or whatever.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dain: Matthew, believe me when I say that I haven't read and re-read a Legion comic as closely as the Lightning Saga issues and Action #858 in years. A lot of what you, seemingly, consider "evidence" is:
1. Explainable "off panel" 2. Little retcons or inconsistencies which are a dime a dozen in comic books. 3. Discrepancies which may, or may not, be explained after the Legion storyline in Action and Countdown are completed.
I could give you examples of all of the above but I'm sure you already know them.
Even major retcons like Karate Kid alive could have occurred at some future point from where this Legion "diverges" from the original continuity. It's not like character "resurrection" is rare in comics, is it?
If there is one major "bump" that suggests this Legion may not be the "classic" one is Supergirl's role in both Legions. That won't be explained easily. The fact that this Legion's origin is almost identical (as far as circumstances allow) to the original's one is a major evidence - but not conclusive - that this Legion is a continuation of the classic one on a divergent timeline and no less "original" than Glorithverse. This is actual evidence, hard evidence, that points to...a certain direction. I don't think one can be objective about it if he/she tosses it aside as unimportant.
You'll notice that I didn't use DC's claims that it IS the original Legion but only evidence from the comics themselves. Let's also keep in mind, all of us, that if a majority of fans believe this is the original Legion and/or they love it on its own merits (or hate it because of its own faults), then, for all intents and purposes it IS the original Legion with a "restored" continuity, or a divergent timeline or anything one wants to call it. If new and old readers love it, then it's *their* Legion. In that case proving or disproving anything is a moot point.
The way I see it is a lot of the inconsistencies can be explained by the changes made in history by New Earth being created.
To me, that makes it more like the Post-Crisis Legion rather than the Glorithverse. And the thing about that is that no-one ever suggested that the Post-Crisis Legion, heck even the Glorithverse Legion, wasn't the originals.
Which makes me wonder what is so different this time that people don't have that same view this time.
[ November 18, 2007, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Paul Newell ]
-------------------- Paul Newell Titan President
From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wild Jorge: Wildfire using Red Tornado's body? I hate it but anyways that could've happened off panel post-Crisis or Magic Wars or whatever.
Or there could be a retcon that Prof. Vultan used the Red Tornado's inner workings to create the suit Wildfire inhabits. It might not be literally Reddy's "body".
-------------------- Paul Newell Titan President
From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above.
As I said above, no-one thought the differences between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis history didn't make the Legion appearing V3, after the Crisis, the originals.
So why do the changes now, as compared to the changes then, cause people to doubt their "authenticity"?
-------------------- Paul Newell Titan President
From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Lots of people were irritated by the changes as they appeared in V3. The authenticity question can be answered a few ways.
I would imagine that fans back in the 80s a) were less likely to complain vocally. There has been a cultural shift in this direction in the past 20 years.
b) Did not have an outlet where they could easily complain. It's hard to remember life before the internet, but writing a letter, putting a stamp on it was an awful lot of work relatively speaking. Then the letter reached the editor and they would filter the ones they wanted to print. As opposed to the net, which resembles an unfiltered hall where everyone talks again.
c) did not have a problems with the hypocrisy of the editorial statements now compared to then. Back then they said upfront that things were being changed to fit the modern continuity, people accepted the loss of that and had moved on. Now they restore the multiverse giving the possibility of the restoration of the entire original continuity. Then they bring back something say it is the original but isn't, when the entire precrisis earth could easily be Earth 86 or whatever.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above. Which is fine for them. But, I fear they will all be extremely disappointed once this Action-Arc is over and we get even more evidence of just how different it is to the "original."
The rest of us, knowing that it's different going in, will be able to handle it better.
Please add to #6 - - no Jimmy Olsen as a member - doubtful that Pete Ross (since no "Superboy") or Lana Lang as members
I'll also add that Karate Kid's original time-trip now seems to not exist as well. Any trip the Legion took to the 20th century especially those involving/helping Superman (which are numerous) seems gone. The original JLA/JSA/LSH team-up, Brave and the Bold and DCCP appearances are wiped out as well.
Pardon me, I haven't read a single issue of Countdown, but I saw this a few months ago in the thread Recent Legion verse sightings.
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Is that out now?
From: West Virginia | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: [QUOTE][qb]In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered.
Name one.
"You were kids." "No. We were Legion." two panels or so beat more than two years. TKO.
quote:[qb]Johns's Legion doesn't have a track record yet. We've only caught glimpses of them, really.
Yet they get bashed by some more for a few guest appearances than a starring-title version that has produced minimal fruits.
I am curious of what your definition of "righteous" is, so I'll refrain from pot/kettle comments.
The original Legion did end, whether in 1994, 1990, 1986/7, 1958 or whenever one draws the line. I concede that. I do not see the Johns Legion as any farther a leap from the original as some (but then, I have no problem with 5YL either).
What is "original?" If it wasn't published in 1958, one can argue that any variant Legion is not "original." Garth's original origin had only him on Korbal getting zapped. Mekt was added later. And then Ayla. Thus by 1963, we were already seeing variantions and changes (and don't get me started on the 21st/30th century or World Wide Police changes).
Thus far, I do not see enough differences to consider this any less authentic "original" than any other Preboot version. If one chooses to perceive differnetly, I respect your rigght to do so. But I respectfully request that you don't get "righteous" about it.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
The differences in a nutshell: 1. no Supergirl or Pocket Universe 2. Young Clark and possibly young Superman instead of Superboy 3. new twists that were not revealed Preboot but don't necessarily contradict it 4. new ties to regular DCU continuity that offer minor (at best) contradictions to Preboot 5. a handful of minor changes
okay... so we do all know this is not exactly Preboot. Instead we are arguing over semantics about how close it is, and whether its proxinity is dishonest or not. Regardless of its quality or impact on contniuity, was Byrne's Superman dishonest for ditching blue, white and plaid Krytonite or revamping what didn't work by his 80s sensibilities? Even if you didn't like it, was that "dishonest?" By all acounts, Byrne intended to get back to (what he saw as) the essence of the character.
Creators, even those trying to rebuild the past, do need some flexibility. Good stories have to take precedence over anal retentive continuity - what good is an intact continuity that no one cares about? How could anyone revive a 100% "authentic" Preboot Legion, since there are so many inconsistencies? Also, how does one pick up at, say, Crisis, without contradicting the rest of v.3 and Preboot v.4? You cannot. You have to figure out what works and run with it.
Johns has yet to show any departure greater than any other in-era modifications.
If you do not believe me, re-read Cary Bates. Re-read the early Silver issues. List al lthe post-Crisis changes. It is impossible to write anything 100% "true" to everything.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Mon-El, even though that image did make it into Countdown, the stories themsleves state that none of the League/Society members know who a Legion is and thus contridicts it being apart of "New Earth" history. And Karate Kid has given no indication that this is his second trip to the present.
So, either it's crappy writing or crappy editing. Take your pick.
And I (personally) don't see anything mentioned above as "anal retentive continity." I see it as a history of a team which Johns and TPTB are claiming are now apart of the Legion that is appearing in Action Comics when their "good stories" are proving that it is not.
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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