quote:Originally posted by Dain: How can it "threaten" something that's has been practically dead for almost 2 decades?
EDE just beat me to the response, but I'll reiterate. The Multiverse is big enough they *could* have come back from the (practically) dead with all their history -- except for the Johnsboot preventing it from happening. Aye, there's the rub.
quote:Originally posted by Dain: My point, Tromium, is that a criterion, a standard or a maxim, can and should be used fairly in all cases, otherwise the person who uses it in an argument loses all objectivity and his rationale falls flat.
Oh, but I do have objective standards and criteria for determining such things, and they are very fair and emprically sound, imo. I'm an amateur local historian to whom the word "original" has special significance. So, let's say I have copies of original church records I discovered in some dusty, moldy archive proving John C. Smith, born 21 September 1739 in Pleasantville OH was a Quaker farmer who was trampled to death by oxen in 1781, when some bigwig historian with two Ph.D.s wrote a 280 page dissertation insisting he was the Episcopalian blacksmith who shoed George Washington's horse at Yorktown in 1783. I won't relent until that bigwig historian admits in print in a recognized scholarly journal that he was wrong and publishes the real story of John C. Smith -- however "mountain out of molehill" trivial it might seem to the vast majority of people -- simply because it's the historical truth.
Same with the original Legion -- and it doesn't matter one bit that it's a work of fiction -- it has its own a historical truth. I have all the documents (old Legion comic book stories written before Crisis) I need in evidence that the Johnsboot isn't the original Legion, and DC's pronouncements to the contrary won't make me surrender my stance. Their ownership of the property has no bearing on the argument. If it did, their commercial interests would be a point against them.
In addition to empirical proofs, I have my own personal experience with the Legion characters dating back to circa 1964. I think I'll know the "people" I grew up with when I see them again. They resonated in a way the Johnsboot parodies do not.
So, who's not being objective? What proof do you have they are the original Legion, other than some DC bigwig saying they are?
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I really think this is an academic discussion... instead of being bothered that Johns might have changed some element of the classic Legion, I am so happy that something that very much resembles the classic Legion is being reintroduced into the DCU.
I don't care if there are minor changes, I can accept a Legion as shown in LS and in #858 as the sequel of the Pre-Crisis Legion and thoroughly, oh so thoroughly enjoy it. Much more than I ever enjoyed the Threeboot - which in my eyes really did not have many big moments, and I just re-read it completely last month - or the Reboot cause both were much more different from the original than Johns attempt seems to be...
So do I care if it's original or classic? No, I'm happy that "the Legion" is back - and I'm very sorry for those of you who can't enjoy it like I do.... you're missing a great thrill
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: I really think this is an academic discussion... instead of being bothered that Johns might have changed some element of the classic Legion, I am so happy that something that very much resembles the classic Legion is being reintroduced into the DCU.
I don't care if there are minor changes, I can accept a Legion as shown in LS and in #858 as the sequel of the Pre-Crisis Legion and thoroughly, oh so thoroughly enjoy it. Much more than I ever enjoyed the Threeboot - which in my eyes really did not have many big moments, and I just re-read it completely last month - or the Reboot cause both were much more different from the original than Johns attempt seems to be...
So do I care if it's original or classic? No, I'm happy that "the Legion" is back - and I'm very sorry for those of you who can't enjoy it like I do.... you're missing a great thrill
It is exactly an academic discussion. But that's okay, as that's one of the levels on which I appreciate the Legion.
I'm fully prepared to enjoy this version of the Legion, and I hope I eventually get to see them in a story of their own. I'm not prepared to say that they're something they're not.
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: ...but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't...
This, I think, is my problem with that aspect of the argument.
There are so many instances of the Silver Age/ Pre-Crisis Legion being so different to each other, thanks to different creative teams.
I hardly see the difference between Wildfire being "Red Tornado", Karate Kid being alive or whatever other change Johns has made and Sun Boy suddenly becoming a philandering ladies man, Timber Wolf becoming feral or Matter-Eater Lad going from being a "stick in the mud" to a crazy jokester.
-------------------- Paul Newell Titan President
From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: ...but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't...
This, I think, is my problem with that aspect of the argument.
There are so many instances of the Silver Age/ Pre-Crisis Legion being so different to each other, thanks to different creative teams.
I hardly see the difference between Wildfire being "Red Tornado", Karate Kid being alive or whatever other change Johns has made and Sun Boy suddenly becoming a philandering ladies man, Timber Wolf becoming feral or Matter-Eater Lad going from being a "stick in the mud" to a crazy jokester.
The way I look at it is this.
There are so many different kinds of ways in which this Legion diverges from the original Legion that, while I could look past most (if not all) of them in isolation, all together they produce a situation where I sometimes have a hard time imagining how anyone can mistake them for the original Legion.
posted
I think most of us can agree that it is not exactly the Pre-Crisis Legion,But for me its the closest thing in nearly twenty years,One of the most important things about the Legion to me is its long history that was lost due to Crisis on Infinite Earths and Byrnes Superman reboot,And if Johns can restore a some of that history and bring back most of the personalities and relationships of those characters he will have accomplished something that has not been seen in the last twenty years of reboots restoring the Legion's continuity instead of destroying it and starting over.
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: ...but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't...
This, I think, is my problem with that aspect of the argument.
There are so many instances of the Silver Age/ Pre-Crisis Legion being so different to each other, thanks to different creative teams.
I hardly see the difference between Wildfire being "Red Tornado", Karate Kid being alive or whatever other change Johns has made and Sun Boy suddenly becoming a philandering ladies man, Timber Wolf becoming feral or Matter-Eater Lad going from being a "stick in the mud" to a crazy jokester.
The way I look at it is this.
There are so many different kinds of ways in which this Legion diverges from the original Legion that, while I could look past most (if not all) of them in isolation, all together they produce a situation where I sometimes have a hard time imagining how anyone can mistake them for the original Legion.
Give me time, I'm sure I could make up a list showing just how many divergences there are between Shooter's Legion and Levitz's Legion.
-------------------- Paul Newell Titan President
From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?
Yes and no.
In 1977, a film you may have heard of came out. It was called "Star Wars." Even though we didn't (yet) know its backstory at the time, it clearly had one, and that added mystery and a mythic quality to our experience of it.
In the 1990s, an amusing sci-fi flick called "Fifth Element" was a fun and generally well-crafted film, but what little backstory it held was sketched out in the beginning and we were not drawn to want/expect any more than what it provided. It did not attract the mythic and yes, iconic level of Star Wars.
I would suggest that both John's story and backstory (shown and implied) draw a closer parallel to the former, while Threeboot tends to be the latter. There has been little hinted at Threeboot's history pre-v.5 #1, nor have we been made to care, or anticipate revelation. (As one of many examples) The mystery of Luornu alone could have been a mythic event - what happened to her world? how/why did she alone survive? It could have been built into Lemnos or another arc... instead it was tossed aside.
You say you are trying to avoid Jorge's characterization, and I would like to believe you. But again and again you retreat into characterizing people who like this version and its story as simply based upon nostalgia.
You say people are failing to appreciate Threeboot's great moments... which great moments are these? Issue #3. Action #850. Maybe B&B. Have I missed any?
The Bedard run has had decent art and adequate stories, but still nothing to call "great." People seem more excited at seeing Wildfire then they are praising the writing.
In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered. If you are going to criticize people for not giving Threeboot its due, you should not pretend it's track record is one iota better than the Johns Legion.
Was Action #858 really hyped more than v.5 #1 or B&B or the addition of Supergirl to LSH? I don't see it. I'm sorry, but it truly does sound like you are looking for excuses to be dismissive of Johns' Legion.
Kent you hit the nail on the head with me with the Star Wars/Fifth Element comparison!
Johns has gone the mythic/powerful (and yes nostalgic) route with this one. The threeboot (& ZH) for me were the Fifth Element. Mind you I liked the film but I'm a huge Star Wars fan. Though Shooter getting his hands on the latest Legion has all kinds of possibilites and I don't want them nostalgic or mythic to tell the truth. Two different Legion and two different styles.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: I really think this is an academic discussion...
hmm, well, I had hoped to avoid the "academic" criticism when I inserted this unabashedly subjective sentiment in my last post:
quote:I have my own personal experience with the Legion characters dating back to circa 1964. I think I'll know the "people" I grew up with when I see them again.. They resonated in a way the Johnsboot parodies do not.
Maybe his characters resonate with fans who began reading in 1974 or 1984, I dunno, but for me they resonate only with Geoff Johns trademarked high-gloss superficiality. Take Dream Girl's stupid "joke" about Hitler vs Brainiac 5 in the Lightning Saga, for example. And this clever little quip from Action #858:
"Aw, take that magnet out of your butt and let him come with us, Rokk. Look at him, he needs a laugh."
That iconic? Mythic? Resonant? Nah, I challenge anyone here to come up with a more painfully bad line in the past 15 years of Legion comic books.
May the ghosts of Otto Binder and Mort Weisinger rise from their tombs and blow cigar smoke in GJ's face. That is my curse.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:So, who's not being objective? What proof do you have they are the original Legion, other than some DC bigwig saying they are?
I don't need any proof because basically I don't care if it's the original Legion or not. Dubbing it the *original* or a *reboot* has not the slightest influnece on whether I'll like it or not or whether I'll feel it's the Legion that I love. The only "proof" I can give you that the Legion in Action is as close to the original as possible today, is the one you also gave me: "I'm a fan of the Legion since 1968, have read practically every story that has been published in the past 49 years -more than once - and I definitely would know the characters I grew up with and they would resonate with me. The Legion in Action IS that Legion."
But!
Do you see that neither your "proof" nor mine is actually proof of anything? It's completely subjective and also a logical fallacy called "ad verecundiam" or "appeal to authority" (not to mention another fallacy that's "appeal to emotion"). In this case both you and I used ourselves as authorities because of how long we've been reading the Legion. It doesn't work like that, Tromium. Not if we want to be objective - and openminded - about it.
As for empirical proof that the Legion in Action is not a "continuation" of the classic Legion, I believe you'll agree that there's very little of it yet. Concluding that it IS or it is NOT the original Legion from the available material at this point, is simply not possible. One can hypothesize about it, one can form theories on available evidence, but there's no actual conclusive "proof" either way. I also believe you'll agree that scholastic analysis on a work of fiction is slightly more subjective by nature and somewhat less "precise" than actual history. The same terms can be used in a different context and a narrow, formulaic use of a term like "original", as you seem to suggest, is not always conducive to objectivity.
[ November 17, 2007, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:As for empirical proof that the Legion in Action is not a "continuation" of the classic Legion, I believe you'll agree that there's very little of it yet. Concluding that it IS or it is NOT the original Legion from the available material at this point, is simply not possible.
Oh, I don't know; I think we've compiled some pretty good supporting evidence.
posted
From a few guest appearances in JLA/JSA and just 1 issue of a 6-part storyline that formally reintroduces an adult Legion with a *potential* cast of dozens of characters and a *potential* history of 49 years? That seems to me like a foregone conclusion and gathering of anything that might resemble evidence to support that conclusion, disregarding all evidence to the contrary. I'm also surprised that you used the word "we". I'm not sure who those "we" might be, and who are the opponents of the "we" who would probably be called "they" from the "we" point of view.
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dain: From a few guest appearances in JLA/JSA and just 1 issue of a 6-part storyline that formally reintroduces an adult Legion with a *potential* cast of dozens of characters and a *potential* history of 49 years?
Yes. Which is part of my point. I *shouldn't* be able to gather that much material from just those few appearances. The fact that I can is itself an indicator of how freely Johns and Meltzer have adapted the material.
quote:That seems to me like a foregone conclusion and gathering of anything that might resemble evidence to support that conclusion, disregarding all evidence to the contrary.
No, you know what? At the start of 'The Lightning Saga' I was convinced that they *were* the original Legion, down to the last detail. I was trying to figure out just *where* in the Levitz run the story could be fit into continuity. Just a couple of issues later, I had changed my mind completely. You don't have to believe me about all this, of course.
quote:I'm also surprised that you used the word "we". I'm not sure who those "we" might be, and who are the opponents of the "we" who would probably be called "they" from the "we" point of view.
When I say 'we' I mean anybody who was paying attention to details like that, regardless of what conclusions they came to about them. If you read the Lightning Saga and paid attention, you're probably part of 'we'.
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