1) Don't underestimate the power of a good cover to move a book off the shelves. The powerful cover image got a lot of people to take a look, I bet.
2) We're discussing this from a Legion point of view. I wonder how many readers who are primarily Superman fans, and don't really know a lot about the Legion are being pulled in by Johns approach. I assume there are a few out there, and imagine their reactions might mirror that of some Superboy fans back in 1959. Johns has tapped into something with this approach of throwing back to the importance of the Legion in Kal's adolescent development. It's something that Superman fans seem to be responding to as much or more than Legion fans.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: How about the fact that the recent new Legion relaunch with a new #1 issue was much hyped (more so in my opinion than the Action arc) and it didn't sell out?
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: [QB] I don't know. But another thing to compare is:
how well Action normally sells how well Action sells with the Legion how well Brave and Bold normally sells how well Brave and Bold sells with the Legion
Action has sold well lately, mainly the Kubert issues, but it's lost a little bit of steam with all the lateness of the book. Apparently, this issue sold a lot more. Could be because of the variant cover, because of Gary Frank starting (I doubt it) or because people are hoping for a continuation of the Lightning Saga from JLA/JSA.
As for Brave & Bold, I don't think there's been a difference in sale with or without the threeboot, but it's definitely selling less.
quote: I know there are some vocal people out there who are enthusiastic about Johns's Legion but don't give a toss about the threeboot Legion. What I don't know is how many silent ones there are. Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?
Well, we only have to judge the fact that the first issue sold out. Most of those sales must come from the silent majority. So it's safe to say thousands. And I wouldn't call it "Johns's Legion" really. He didn't create it. But i think that people mostly want something that's well written and drawn, and the threeboot Legion so far hasn't had any Wow factor, ,which is something you need to generate sales.
quote: And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.
I think people want a mysterious, intriguing story, and Lightning Sage has set exactly that up. Plus, the appearance of this Karate Kid in Countdown certainly doesn't hurt. All in all, Lightning Saga has generated an interest in the "old" Legion, while DC hasn't succeeded in generating interest in the threeboot Legion.
I'm not Geoff Johns's biggest fan, but you've gotta hand it to him: he knows how to bring back characters into the fray: Teen Titans, Green Lantern, JSA... the list is long.
-------------------- Ze Frainch Legion fan
From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Oct 2004
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You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?
You make some very good points, but as someone else already pointed out, the threeboot Legion's already appeared in Action Comics and didn't generate as much attention.
But there's something else to take into account. Even if someone has never had any experience of the Legion, there's a very good chance they've heard of the classic series, more than the Zero Hour reboot or the Threeboot. it's always been that Iconic look that's been represented in house ads, or, with maybe one exception or two, in other projects showing the Legion in one panel (like Alex Ross's projects).
Plus, we have to take into account that two regular series feature characters form that particular Legion, JSA (Starman) and Countdown (Karate Kid and Mono Girl... ermm Una), which brings more attention to them.
We don't know what this Legion is like, for all we know, their backstory is totally different from what we know, but this Legion has ONE MAIN advantage over the two reboots...
It is ICONIC. And that is what appeals to people, and that's what DC has been doing lately.
-------------------- Ze Frainch Legion fan
From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.
Even more astounding as you can see that the Legion IS NOT EVEN ON THE COVER of Action #858 (only mentioned, but no picture)...
I have to say that I did not get the Action Annual with the Legion cause I just did not care enough for the Threeboot to spend the money (considering the fact that since the 90s, Annuals are mostly crap anyway... crappy story, crappy art, all crappy )
And the Legion WAS on the cover there...
But what I really think we need to make sure that what we feel is right - that the classic Legion sells more books - are the numbers Matthew mentioned above. Does anybody have the opportunity to get them???
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Pariscub: it's always been that Iconic look that's been represented in house ads,
Calling for proof on this one...
quote:Originally posted by Pariscub: or, with maybe one exception or two, in other projects showing the Legion in one panel (like Alex Ross's projects).
And yet, in Kingdom Come, the LSH there is more SW6/postboot than anything else, including an XS. It's even got "stripe" Superboy & Supergirl costumes.
Yeah, Ross' private lithos etc went for the 70s look, but that's not what you're suggesting.
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?
Yes and no.
In 1977, a film you may have heard of came out. It was called "Star Wars." Even though we didn't (yet) know its backstory at the time, it clearly had one, and that added mystery and a mythic quality to our experience of it.
In the 1990s, an amusing sci-fi flick called "Fifth Element" was a fun and generally well-crafted film, but what little backstory it held was sketched out in the beginning and we were not drawn to want/expect any more than what it provided. It did not attract the mythic and yes, iconic level of Star Wars.
I would suggest that both John's story and backstory (shown and implied) draw a closer parallel to the former, while Threeboot tends to be the latter. There has been little hinted at Threeboot's history pre-v.5 #1, nor have we been made to care, or anticipate revelation. (As one of many examples) The mystery of Luornu alone could have been a mythic event - what happened to her world? how/why did she alone survive? It could have been built into Lemnos or another arc... instead it was tossed aside.
You say you are trying to avoid Jorge's characterization, and I would like to believe you. But again and again you retreat into characterizing people who like this version and its story as simply based upon nostalgia.
You say people are failing to appreciate Threeboot's great moments... which great moments are these? Issue #3. Action #850. Maybe B&B. Have I missed any?
The Bedard run has had decent art and adequate stories, but still nothing to call "great." People seem more excited at seeing Wildfire then they are praising the writing.
In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered. If you are going to criticize people for not giving Threeboot its due, you should not pretend it's track record is one iota better than the Johns Legion.
Was Action #858 really hyped more than v.5 #1 or B&B or the addition of Supergirl to LSH? I don't see it. I'm sorry, but it truly does sound like you are looking for excuses to be dismissive of Johns' Legion.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Yes, indeedy, WaK's first issue did sell out but it took longer and didn't go to a 2nd printing.
It debuted at #25 on the sales chart vs. Action #858 at #34. Nothing to sneeze at.
The Titans/Legion special starring the reboot and 3boot Legions (their actual first appearance) was an even bigger seller -- iirc, the highest selling Legion title since Diamond starting recording sales figures. It remains to be seen if Action #858 beats it, or WaK #1 for that matter.
I bet Shooter's premiere issue sells out, too, and outsells Action, if only for his name.
None of it means a dang thing for long term success. Time is the only test that matters. All we know is the current monthly Legion title will be published into Spring 2009 and DC has yet to announce or hint at any plans for other incarnations beyond the 50th anniversary project. It's premature to crown any one the "winner".
Re. the "iconic" debate, I don't see Johnsboot Legion possessing any iconic quality or mythos value it hasn't stolen from the real original Legion, who've yet to make an appearance. Plus, I'm thinking it would be outrageously and hysterically funny if the 3boots turned out to be the reborn Legion of Adventure #247 -- the original original Legion, i.e., the Ur-Legion of 1958 -- whose story Johns inexplicably ignored in #858 in favor of his own weak and pale imitation of the first meeting.
Yes, Virginia, there can be more than one "original" Legion. (We have to wonder who is the character Shooter says DC will call an air strike on his house if he revealed it.)
posted
I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot, 5YL, Johns, or even post-Crisis Levitz, while insisting that Threeboot is somehow more tightly connected with Silver/original LSH at all. I've seen several do it, and it is totally mind-boggling.
I for one am glad we do have multiple versions to support or not. It certainly beats there being no Legion published at all.
My point is that a bunch of people seem to be using selective and arbitrary double standards to put down the Johns Legion in such a way as to imply that Threeboot is somehow a better product.
If Threeboot is threatened by a variant Legion, why not rail against the animated book/series?
It seems clear that some Threeboot supporters are threatened by the sheer notion of a Legion version closer to the original, instead of worrying about why Threeboot has been so lackluster for almost all of the past three years.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot, 5YL, Johns, or even post-Crisis Levitz, while insisting that Threeboot is somehow more tightly connected with Silver/original LSH at all. I've seen several do it, and it is totally mind-boggling.
I for one am glad we do have multiple versions to support or not. It certainly beats there being no Legion published at all.
My point is that a bunch of people seem to be using selective and arbitrary double standards to put down the Johns Legion in such a way as to imply that Threeboot is somehow a better product.
If Threeboot is threatened by a variant Legion, why not rail against the animated book/series?
It seems clear that some Threeboot supporters are threatened by the sheer notion of a Legion version closer to the original, instead of worrying about why Threeboot has been so lackluster for almost all of the past three years.
It's not that the Johnsboot Legion threatens the 3boot Legion -- it threatens the original Legion. It replaces it, precludes its very existence now and in the future. It's the anti-original Legion, imo.
And I didn't argue the 3boot was a better (or more sucessful) product than the original or any other version, but it's certainly more palatable to me personally than a version designed to manipulate readers into believing it's something it's not.
From: Reimagined Trom | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot, 5YL, Johns, or even post-Crisis Levitz, while insisting that Threeboot is somehow more tightly connected with Silver/original LSH at all. I've seen several do it, and it is totally mind-boggling.
I for one am glad we do have multiple versions to support or not. It certainly beats there being no Legion published at all.
My point is that a bunch of people seem to be using selective and arbitrary double standards to put down the Johns Legion in such a way as to imply that Threeboot is somehow a better product.
If Threeboot is threatened by a variant Legion, why not rail against the animated book/series?
It seems clear that some Threeboot supporters are threatened by the sheer notion of a Legion version closer to the original, instead of worrying about why Threeboot has been so lackluster for almost all of the past three years.
I thought that Legion fans generally accepted all versions on their own merits, regardless of which version was their favorite one. It doesn't seem to be so and I find it mind-boggling too. One fan in another forum hated DC for "its shameless catering to Legion geezers" just because an older version of the Legion is resurrected, more or less. I really can't relate to that at all. I don't want to sound judgmental but I can't help but wonder how genuine some fans are or/and how honest in their opinions. Feeling threatened because there are readers who want ONE MORE Legion book is just plain..uhh..silly. Denying other peoples' "right" to want a legion version they like, using buzzwords/phrases like "geezers", "nostalgia", "it's just the costumes they want" etc is like an insult to older fans' intelligence, not to mention disappointing...
Please excuse the rant. It's just that...well... ..you know. The Legion has always been about acceptance and i can't help but wonder whether some fans are able to *see* that integral part of a comic book they are so passionate about. It's a sentimental approach but I don't think it's less valuable than a cold, pragmatic, critical approach or a "wow, kewl" thing. I believe that we basically read comics for the "sense of wonder" they give us, and it's based on a feeling/sentiment/emotion.
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tromium: [It's not that the Johnsboot Legion threatens the 3boot Legion -- it threatens the original Legion. It replaces it, precludes its very existence now and in the future. It's the anti-original Legion, imo. [/QB]
How can it "threaten" something that's has been practically dead for almost 2 decades? It doesn't seem very logical. It'd be far more accurate to say the 3boot Legion "threatened" the Reboot since it replaced it, or that the classic Legion appearing in Action "threatens" the 3boot because of the possibility it'll replace it (I hope it won't and we'll have two or three Legion books). If one wasn't a fan of the 3boot (I like it in general and read it semi-religiously every month) one could even go so far as declare that the 3boot is the one version that "threatens" the Legion, original or not, because it's so far removed as a universe from all other Legion versions. My point, Tromium, is that a criterion, a standard or a maxim, can and should be used fairly in all cases, otherwise the person who uses it in an argument loses all objectivity and his rationale falls flat.
[ November 17, 2007, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
The difference is that the threeboot isn't being sold to us under the pretense that it *is* the original Legion, which I think is what a lot of people are annoyed at. Many of us who are first and foremost fans of the Silver Age/pre-Crisis Legion/DCU are willing to appreciate alternative versions on their own merits, but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't, on the eve of the Legion anniversary, especially when they just reintroduced a mechanism (alternate earths) which could very easily have allowed us to have the genuine Earth-1 Superman and Earth-1 Legion back without *any* needless changes to their continuity to conform with "New Earth" or whatever, is something that I find kind of offensive as a pre-Crisis fan. Of course, it's fairly typical of DC's overall approach to comics these days, but it's disappointing nonetheless.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
There are also a lot of people - classic Legion fans - who are not annoyed by it at all and either enjoy a good story with the classic Legion, or are happy to see the "original" back. Those who feel it's the original have as much right to be happy about it as those who are annoyed by the use of the word "original" have the right to be annoyed. And the debate goes on which is also good.
I'm not sure about fans who just don't care about the old Legion, but I feel we're making a mountain out of molehill regarding the use of the word "original". Personally, I'd have been much happier if DC had used the word "classic" Legion instead of "original" and yes, after all is said and done I believe it's matter of different definitions of the term "original" as applied to a work of fiction.
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: You say you are trying to avoid Jorge's characterization, and I would like to believe you. But again and again you retreat into characterizing people who like this version and its story as simply based upon nostalgia.
The nostalgia-fans don't bother me. The people who've put thought into their preference for this Legion over any other don't bother me. The intrigued new readers don't bother me. Anybody who has liked what they have seen and want to see more, doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the people who get righteous about it.
quote:You say people are failing to appreciate Threeboot's great moments... which great moments are these? Issue #3. Action #850. Maybe B&B. Have I missed any?
I'd say issue #2. Invisible Kid, Brainy and Violet taking down Elysion. The Colu issue was good. There may be more that aren't coming to mind at the moment.
quote:In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered.
Name one.
quote: If you are going to criticize people for not giving Threeboot its due, you should not pretend it's track record is one iota better than the Johns Legion.
Johns's Legion doesn't have a track record yet. We've only caught glimpses of them, really.
quote: I'm sorry, but it truly does sound like you are looking for excuses to be dismissive of Johns' Legion.
If DC wants me to be enthusiastic about Johns's Legion, they can do at least one of two things:
1. Stop calling them the original Legion. 2. Put them in a good story where they're not just supporting characters.
Until that happens (and I hope it does happen!), I accept them as a valid version of the Legion... but I can't give them credit for having a long and/or proud history, because they don't have one of either kind.
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
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, when issue #850 did not - 
is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge. ![[Evil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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