posted
I don't know. But another thing to compare is:
how well Action normally sells how well Action sells with the Legion how well Brave and Bold normally sells how well Brave and Bold sells with the Legion
and even then it's not clear, because a) DC was really hyping this run of Action, and b) it was Gary Frank's first Action issue, and a lot of people seemed excited about that.
I know there are some vocal people out there who are enthusiastic about Johns's Legion but don't give a toss about the threeboot Legion. What I don't know is how many silent ones there are. Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?
And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.
posted
I do think that there are some of readers in the silent majority (non-internet people) who would see and recognize Dawnstar, Wildfire and others from the late 70's/Levitz era and be inclined to pick up Action for that reason. Visually, it would look like the Legion they remember.
Its impossible to quantify that specifically, of course. All you can look at is the numbers and then use the mulititude of variables to try and figure out what is selling. You've provided a handful of them Matthew, but there are plenty more as you most likely know. What will be interesting is seeing what DC editorial does about it...
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.
I respect your right to believe as you will.
But when I am a new reader onto a book, I am more intrigued by a rich backstory to delve into than a flashy car spinning its wheels in the mud.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Let's say Geoff Johns and Brad Meltzer wrote the Lightning Saga, and Johns wrote this arc of Action Comics, using the threeboot Legion instead of the revival version we're actually getting.
Would it still be as good, or not?
Good question. First of all, Threeboot Legion's future would not hold the level of mystery and surprise that we find in Action: if SPs were firing on Kal, we'd already know these are the arrogant SPs WaK intro'd, not the nice-guy SPs of 60s-80s.
Likewise, since we already have a sense of Threeboot's 31th C, the Red Sun bit would either come as no surprise, or an odd contradiction with the regular series.
Next, it would be a larger stretch for Superman to have as emotional a connection with Threeboot LSH, since that has not been established. Falling back on restored continuity allows that to be taken largely as a given. Thus we have several pages of recap rather than a six-part arc about young Clark with a Preboot LSH.
Next,despite his variances, Johns does seem to be writing to Preboot LSH in the spirit of who they were in that run. If he was obligated to use Threeboot, he might not connect as closely with those interpretations; it would seem like a Legion that looks like Threeboot but might not act like them (sort of how people have noted that Supergirl in LSH and in her own book don't seem like the same character). That could weaken the story.
And, as Johns does not have to fit his story into Threeboot continuity, he is freer to write the story he wants to.
I admit I have gotten into assumptions, but there is no way to answer the question without. I cannot believe Threeboot LSH is in any way interchangeable with Preboot. Imagine Threeboot LSH shoe-horned into Great Darkness (or even Conspiracy); it would not have the same impact.
How well would the following people like it, compared to how well they like what we did get:
- you?
I've been waiting three years for a Threeboot story that knocks my socks off. I'm still waiting. If Johns was somehow able to maintain the same energy/mystery/quality, I'd accept it. But as I've said, I don't think it could have had the same impact (and not just because of nostalgia).
- someone who's never heard of the Legion before? - someone who's heard of the Legion but never actually read any Legion comics? - old-school Legion fans in general? - younger Legion fans?
Unless someone has made a tight connection with Threeboot (I concede it is possible), I believe individual fans could like/dislike either, or both. Some might even be intrigued as to why there are two (three if you count the animated) versions of the LSH right now.
And I do think old-school fans in general will prefer Action, and not just for nostalgia.
When we're dividing up the credit for how well this comic has succeeded, how much should go to: - the fact that it's any Legion at all - the fact that it's *this* Legion - the fact that it's Geoff Johns, Gary Frank, and Action Comics?
I think if Byrne were reviving Preboot (or any boot), I'd give up comics all together (okay, slightb exaggeration). Creative teams in my opinion do play a huge role.
I do concede that Preboot LSH has a great deal of appeal at the moment, primarily because Threeboot has been so disappointing. But even a well-executed Threeboot (or DNA-era Reboot) LSH would we very welcome. And I am looking forward to Shooter's Threeboot run very much.
But if all that the Johns Legion was running on is nostalgia, it would have run out of steam already. I think those so quick to dismiss this LSH like that are taking a rather cheap shot.
[ November 16, 2007, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Kent Shakespeare ]
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: I know there are some vocal people out there who are enthusiastic about Johns's Legion but don't give a toss about the threeboot Legion.
See I think this is part of the problem. At no point did anyone compare sales between the Action/LS/Levitz-esque Legion and the current Legion. Well unto you did so.
Matthew E. you preach "lets all the Legions get along" but then you seem to really try and knock THIS Legion. I've seen you do it here, on Geoff's boards and Newsarama.
People are getting excited over THIS Legion. That doesn't mean they are dogging the current Legion. I am personally very excited about Shooter & fjm on the other Legion.
But god forbid we celebrate THIS Legion. Practice what you preach. Lets not turn these Legion against each other. You think because people celebrate THIS Legion they are dogging the other one. You are dogging this Legion.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Sorry about outburst I just had my coffee. (cuban/strong stuff)
But how about the sales with Johns, Donner and Kubert. No offense to Frank but I think Kubert is a bigger name. Did those sell out?
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.
You may refuse to believe it Matthew, but it's a fact. They don't "automatically" prefer anything. They just like it better and in several forums there've been people who said just that. "I love the Legion in Action and had never read the Legion before". That is a fact. You may choose to disregard it as irrelevant, but it remains a fact. Certain people may feel it's impossible to like the Legion in Action more than the WaK one, but I feel that's an emotional and sentimental response because of *their* emotional investment in the current Legion, like you yourself have pointed out - beautifully and eloquently - in your blog. It's obvious that the artificial dichotomy "Old Legion for old people - New Legion for young people" has crumbled. Young people can like the old Legion fine if it's part of a good story.
[ November 16, 2007, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
From: Somewhere in the Multiverse | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.
And people responded:
quote:I respect your right to believe as you will.
But when I am a new reader onto a book, I am more intrigued by a rich backstory to delve into than a flashy car spinning its wheels in the mud.
quote:You may refuse to believe it Matthew, but it's a fact. They don't "automatically" prefer anything. They just like it better and in several forums there've been people who said just that. "I love the Legion in Action and had never read the Legion before".
You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?
quote:Matthew E. you preach "lets all the Legions get along" but then you seem to really try and knock THIS Legion. I've seen you do it here, on Geoff's boards and Newsarama.
People are getting excited over THIS Legion. That doesn't mean they are dogging the current Legion. I am personally very excited about Shooter & fjm on the other Legion.
But god forbid we celebrate THIS Legion. Practice what you preach. Lets not turn these Legion against each other. You think because people celebrate THIS Legion they are dogging the other one. You are dogging this Legion.
I am trying very hard not to do exactly what you said I am doing.
It is true that I have some objections to how DC is presenting Johns's Legion to us, and I have not been shy about saying so.
But I have also said that there have been lots of times when DC has made decisions about the Legion that I didn't agree with, and good Legion comics have come of it anyway. Since it's Geoff Johns who's writing about this Legion, I fully expect that this will be another such time. I have never said that this was a bad version of the Legion or that the stories containing them were bad.
One thing I have said is this: we don't know anything about this Legion yet. We know that they're based on the original Legion, but we also know that Johns feels free to take some liberties with the source material. We don't know much about his take on them yet. I am optimistic about the quality of the storytelling and characterization we're going to see with regards to this Legion, but all it is is optimism. It's not based on anything we've seen so far. What have we seen so far? Have we seen any Legion stories starring this Legion? We have not. We have seen: - a JLA/JSA story in which a few Legionnaires appeared. Almost all the time they were onscreen they were amnesiac or acting deceptively - one issue of a Superman story in which a few Legionnaires appeared
When I actually see something from this Legion, good or bad, I'll say so. I'll 'celebrate' them once I get to know them. So far I haven't seen anything.
Again: I don't have a problem with this version of the Legion. I'm looking forward to the next issue of Action. I have a problem with - DC, for trying to pass them off as the original Legion when they're not. That's dishonest. - the fans who are giving this Legion a free ride by pronouncing them great before they have had any great appearances in comic books, but (some of) who wouldn't walk across the street to spit on the 5YL, reboot or threeboot Legions despite the great appearances in comic books those versions have had.
posted
Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I did some research but I am not as good about the sales stuff as other guys here.
The last Johns-Donner-Kubert issue was was ranked #54 in the top 100. I saw some of the other months with that creative team and they were similiar.
So it seems Action isn't selling well even with star creators (Johns/Donner/Kubert!).
Speaking of star creators Waid/Kitson are pretty big names. It didn't equate to big sales either.
So it's either Gary Frank is a much bigger name than I thought or this Legion has drawn lots of attention.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
That's true. And I had thought of that. But there's also the issue of how hard DC has been pushing and hyping the arc that started with #858; that probably had some effect.
I don't deny that the presence of Johns's revival Legion has had a positive effect. I just don't know how much of an effect, and it's not the only factor.
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.
Yes and we have been waiting for their return for over twenty years now.
Long Live THE LEGION!
[ November 16, 2007, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Lone Wolf Legionnaire ]
-------------------- I tried to rip their soul out.I tried to make them forget Superman. But they won't.
From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
How about the fact that the recent new Legion relaunch with a new #1 issue was much hyped (more so in my opinion than the Action arc) and it didn't sell out?
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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, when issue #850 did not - 
is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.
