Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by matlock: It's not their fault that there hasn't really been a notable villain introduced in 10 years (or more like 20.)
Try more like forty. Most of the standard Legion villains were created in the sixties. With a couple of exceptions (Tyr, the League of Super-Assassins) the 70s villains were mostly blah, and Levitz mostly recycled old villains in the 80s, and his few originals were mostly unmemorable, except maybe Zymyr (and Darkseid, who wasn't primarily a Legion villain). 5YG gave us... uh, Vrykos? He wasn't really used enough to make an impression. B.I.O.N. was really just a recycled Computo/Composite Superman combo. The early reboot tried to give us a couple, though Tangleweb is the only one that strikes me as particularly memorable. DnA pretty much gave us generic alien hordes, and Waid largely continued the practice, though Elysion was probably worthwhile. Lemnos wasn't a bad idea for a villain, though his story was pretty weak.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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I guess it all depends on what happens at the end of L3W. I mean, if we are left with an integrated team of old and new and some in between, then I say just go from there and start telling stories. There will be some learning curve for the Legionnaires and readers alike, seeing how this mixture places off each other, but I see no need to start from ground zero again. It's been done twice already in recent history, to mixed results.
I think anyone who's reading Legion these days already has an idea of what they're all about, so might as well just hit the ground running.
-------------------- Some people are like slinkys: not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you knock them down a flight of stairs
From: Penthouse atop Levitz Hall, LMBP Plaza, Embassy Row, Legion World | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: It was sad that Alexis only made it into the actual show one time (plus one cameo, I think). She should have been good for at least a two-parter. Just one more frustrating aspect to so much of Season 2 being all-boys-all-the-time. Glad to hear that she and the Disco-Stu Starfinger got some play in the comic before it was canceled, at least.
Unfortunately Alexis didn't make it into the comic book. She should have, though! But Starfinger was awesome.
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by cleome: Also, back in the day, George Freeman had a great satirical strip where he deplored comic editors, writers and artists who wouldn't explore our world, but only "used it as a cheap backdrop." This applies just as well to future as to past and present. If we've got this diverse stew of planets, societies, and cultures, I wanna' see a few of 'em at length and in detail-- at least sometimes. Not just as a "cheap backdrop." In the hands of competent people, a great way to reveal a character's personality is to drop them into an unfamiliar environment and see how they cope, or don't cope.
That's an interesting thought there. Back in the '60s and '70s, for the most part, the Legionnaires looked and acted like kids of their time, even the 'aliens' being little more than humans with different colored skin.
That's changed quite a bit, but even the more alien-looking aliens (such as Gates) ended up being not at all alien in mindset (ooh, he's curmudgeonly and a communist!).
Registered: Aug 2006
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Originally posted by Set:
quote:(snip) Back in the '60s and '70s, for the most part, the Legionnaires looked and acted like kids of their time, even the 'aliens' being little more than humans with different colored skin.
That's changed quite a bit, but even the more alien-looking aliens (such as Gates) ended up being not at all alien in mindset (ooh, he's curmudgeonly and a communist!).
That's plenty alien, considering.
There's obviously a certain level of alien-ness that we can't imagine, just as there's all kinds of futuristic stuff we can't imagine. Hell, I can't even believe that there are people right down the block from me that don't like dark chocolate or Anita O'Day records. Even though I know it's true, I still don't quite believe it.
[grin]
But I still appreciate when creative people make an attempt to be, y'know, creative. To cite another example, I'll always treasure the wrought-up rant by a largely non-humanoid alien in Evan S. Dorkin's old Hectic Planet comic. He's, shall we say, being hit on by a very human lady-of-the-evening. When all graceful attempts at brushing her off fail, he finally screams at her that:
A) He's broke
B) He doesn't find human women at all physically attractive,
C) Five out of an infinite number of non-Earth species in whatever-their-version-of-the-U.P.-is-called can physically mate with humans and out of those five only two or three care to (emphasis mine).
See, I love that kind of stuff. It forces a beloved and useful but very common trope in light sci-fi completely off the page-- at least for awhile. It makes the storyteller at least try to do something different.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Originally posted by Matthew E:
quote: Alexis didn't make it into the comic book. She should have, though! But Starfinger was awesome.
I was leafing through one of those collections at the bookstore the other day. Someday I'll be solvent enough to go back and get it.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I think the Legion should follow Cleopatra's example and be rolled out in one *big* carpet at the feet of Julius Caesar.
From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Jul 2003
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please don't start from ground zero again. they can't. they are already a butt of jokes for the multiple reboots. however, i hope they don't keep the aged, grizzled geoff johns' lsh. i want youth and optimism in the future! not more dystopia and haunted faces. the cartoon got so much right in reinterpreting the lsh for 21st century audiences.
-------------------- Gorilla Nebula
From: san francisco | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Interesting, how much of what's being said doesn't focus on continuity. There's a definite consensus around beginning with action, explaining afterward, emphasizing supervillains, and using alien worlds.
I'll be the first one to defend the threeboot - it was almost the Legion series I wanted to see. But it wasn't good on supervillains. Some superhero series (Batman, etc.) focus as much or more on the villains. 60s Marvel popularized this technique, but it seems that team books usually don't get the best rogues' galleries. I want that to change, starting now.
Use familiar villains if you wish, but some of them need to be made better. I always thought the Legion of Super-Villains, not the Fatal Five, should have been the Legion's designated archenemies, but they haven't been sufficiently or consistently developed to make them interesting. Unlike, say, the X-Men, the Legionnaires have no common characteristic. But as the Legion is the only series set in its time, this works. However, villain teams need distinguishing characteristics; they can't be random collections of villains.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I'd definitely like to see more super-villains who are sort of 'plugged in' to the setting. There was an issue where some mysterious space pirates where attacking ships and always getting away, and it was determined that the pilot for the pirate vessel was a Bgtzln who would use a machine to phase the entire ship for their daring getaways. That was cool. It would also serve as a contrast to how heroic a choice figures like Luornu and Tasmia have made if we were to see some villainous Carggites or Talokkians. (Obviously, we've already seen villainous Imskians, Braalians, Titanians, Durlans, etc.)
Alright, but don't have the Legion treat them as anything unusual. Recognize that species powers are, by definition, not exceptional. In fact, demythologize super-powers in general.
Avoid 20th century villains.
More focus on villains will also go with less focus on Earth. The Legion should be galaxy-trotting, going to where the action is.
Another weakness of Waid's run was his use of armies (Lemnos' army and the small-l legionnaires rallied by Invisible Kid). In a world of supers, numbers don't mean anything. These battles were important to his run, but confusing to the reader.
Explain what's the same and what's different, in a way that works for the longtime reader and the new reader alike. But assume we get the point quickly. The second time Waid's Element Lad explained that his transmutation wore off after a minute, I was really annoyed. You've already told us what he is, now show us who he is!
Embrace the large cast. Don't even have a "core".
Recognize that even the Legion should rarely be able to affect galactic-scale events. It should be done more like Star Trek than Star Wars: change the fate of a planet at most, not a galaxy. Star Wars doesn't really have a storytelling engine; that sort of scale isn't viable for an ongoing series. That's what DnA didn't get. Don't give us a series of endless escalation until it becomes impossible to top. Bigger stories aren't better.
I don't want another Star Trek clone future (the original and reboot), nor an undeveloped one (the threeboot). Don't make a feel-good series in any sense of the word. Don't rely on nostalgia for characters. Don't rely on making the future just 50s America with SF gadgets because you think we're too dumb to get anything else. Play up the SF, and pay attention when you do to SF newer than the 60s!
Now, some more continuity-concerning stuff:
I don't want to see a continuation of the Action Comics Legion because they aren't "real" to me. I won't read their story.
I don't want to see a merged Legion for the same reason I didn't want to see Legion of Three Worlds in the first place. I don't want the Legion done metafictionally. I generally prefer DC characters to Marvel characters, but I am sprocking sick of DC's metafictionality. I don't want different continuities of any series to interact. When DC editorial said "No alternate earths", it was a good idea. Not that I mind parallel-universe fiction, and it should in fact have been allowed. What I don't like is most Earths that existed pre-Crisis, and all Earths like them. Metafictional earths. I wouldn't mind, for example, Elseworlds as parallel earths. Or, for that matter, Earth-3, because it's basically the Mirror Universe. But no Earths which could replace the main one. And absolutely no assigning a story to an Earth after it's written. DC should have instituted a ban on metafiction. (And, for that reason, don't let Grant Morrison anywhere near the Legion!)
Don't use a 20th century viewpoint character. Let us get to know the Legion from their time's point of view. However, a couple years in, pull your ace in the hole. The Legion lands in Kansas in the 1950s (or even the 1930s). This is Superboy's time. Not the present. It's the time in which he works best. Don't bother explaining this; just go with it. (I can't claim credit for this idea, unfortunately. It was tossed up on Newsarama a while back.) Now he comes to the future, and we're hit once again with how strange it is. We learn more about it that we ever knew.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Funnily enough, i always thought the future was Superboy's time. I never cared for the solo stories when he was a kid.
About the only concensus i am seeing is that we want shorter arcs, we don't want the characters sitting around a clubhouse all the time, and we want action.
And honestly, and this may sound heretical, i would be willing to see "less stellar art" if you want to call it that, if and only if the stories came out on time, and there was more than a small core of characters able to be portrayed.
Jimmy Janes may have not been the "superstar" that some other artists were, but from what i remember, he did solid storytelling on time. Some of the stories let him down in my opinion. I'm not saying i am willing to pay for crap, but i don't want three issues to come out on time, and the fourth one two months later, with huge mega splashes and a tin foil cover.
I realize that this is a large cast comic. And that seems to scare off a lot of artists, but most stories told have around six to ten protagonists, and that isn't much more than say JLA or JSA. There may be some months were the artist needs a little lead time help...fine, no problem with that. But please, just get it done.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: I always thought the Legion of Super-Villains, not the Fatal Five, should have been the Legion's designated archenemies, but they haven't been sufficiently or consistently developed to make them interesting.
While I love the Emerald Empress, and see potential for Tharok/the Dark Man, I never was really wowed by Validus, and both the Persuader and Mano are dramatically hindered by their powers. They can't actually ever *touch* a Legionnaire without killing them, which means that they are limited to spending their entire villainous careers swinging around impotently failing to connect, blowing up / cleaving through set pieces and bits of scenery and / or threatening / killing civilians.
Boring.
The Super-Assassins or LSV work better because they *can* whip out the lethal force, but can also function in more 'comic-book' fights where people just blast each other and get knocked around a lot.
Given a choice, I'd rather see the Super-Assassins or even people like Terror Firma shown more, than many of the LSV. Mekt works better, IMO, as a solo character to contrast with Garth. A whole 'Legion' of villainous counterparts pairing off against the Legion just feels kinda cheap to me, as it would if the X-Men's main adversaries were a team consisting of some dude with optic blasts and a lady telekinetic / telepath and a crazy dude with claws, all imperfect copies of the current team.
(More 'original' LSV members like Zymyr, Tyr, Ron-Karr and Spider-Girl, on the other hand, are cooler, because they aren't copies, like Magno, Chameleon Chief, etc.)
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
For a while, I wanted to see an LSV that was either
The Legion's Mirror Universe (Earh-3/Earth-2/whatever) counterpart
or (and this is really crazy)
The Legion's own future selves. I have no idea how that would work. I got the idea from mixing up the names of the Silver Age Adult Legion and the LSV (don't remember if it was my mixup or someone else's).
quote:Originally posted by Set: While I love the Emerald Empress, and see potential for Tharok/the Dark Man, I never was really wowed by Validus, and both the Persuader and Mano are dramatically hindered by their powers. They can't actually ever *touch* a Legionnaire without killing them, which means that they are limited to spending their entire villainous careers swinging around impotently failing to connect, blowing up / cleaving through set pieces and bits of scenery and / or threatening / killing civilians.
Boring.
The Super-Assassins or LSV work better because they *can* whip out the lethal force, but can also function in more 'comic-book' fights where people just blast each other and get knocked around a lot.
Characters built too strongly around offensive power often aren't that useful.
One thing I forgot to mention. When I said
quote:Embrace the large cast. Don't even have a "core".
I wanted to point out the time at which I find the Legion interesting.
I'm not interested in an older Legion. I'm also not interested in seeing the very beginning of the Legion, or the time immediately after or before it, unless it's radically different from the way it's been told before. Why? Becuase the Legion's origin story was a later addition, and it never felt very important. A "pre-Year-One" Legion story couldn't work because the Legionnaires didn't meet until the origin! Also, nothing especially weird happened to the founders to motivate them to be heroes, they just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The Legion wasn't planned in advance. This means that, to me, the founders have little special significance. It was a case of writers taking the easy way out when they established that the first Legionnaires Superboy met were the first Legionnaires. And an early Legion has too few members to feel like the Legion to me. There's a reason the reboot rushed to draft as many members as possible. The Silver Age Legion didn't get a regular series until their membership was in the double digits.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Jeyra Entinn was a rebooted Esper Lass. Too much bad girls from Titan...Saturn Queen, Esper Lass, Mentalla, the reboot Imra's sister Janice (Future villain)...and now Jeyra Entinn.
-------------------- From Spain with glamour.
From: Valencia- Spain | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Just chiming into a thread for the first time...
I personally don't see what the big deal about having an adult Legion is. Personally, I could give a rat's iota about Reboot or 3boot. I want the real Legion with newer, younger characters thrown in. Granted, I'm somewhat of a traditionalist in that regard (same with with soaps. Give me Bob, Kim, & Lisa on ATWT over any of the teen twits any day). But I don't see why the original teen has to be presented as exceptionally aged. It's the future, for goodness sakes. They can be written about at any point in their lifeline. I do, however, think the original team is probably in their late 20s now (roughly, I presume, the same age as the now adult Teen Titans). The newer, younger characters can be those popular Reboot, 3Boot characters who didn't have an original counterpoint.
Also, I think it would be wise to have 2 separate series (hell, 3 series would work for me). First, you have the "core" series which is the current telling of Legion tales with the full cast of charaters. Second would be their run in Adventure which (at least IMO) should be a retelling of the Legion's history as it now fits into current DCU continuity. Let's have the new Adventure start out roughly at where the original Adventure #300 started up. You've got most of the long-established characters available. Then you go forward in something akin to an extended "Year 3" or whatever, filling in the blanks and smoothing over the roughness and sillyness of the silver age. Think of it as a futuristic 'All Star Squadron' where that series (one of my all-time favs, btw) took established Golden Aged stories & characters and worked their stories in and around them, often fleshing out what had already been established. Essentially, the two series would cover where they are now and how they got there.
As long as I never have to hear the phrases "5 Year Gap", "Archie Legion", or "Rebooted AGAIN?!" ever again.
From: Lexington, KY | Registered: Nov 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by EmeraldEmpress: Jeyra Entinn was a rebooted Esper Lass. Too much bad girls from Titan...Saturn Queen, Esper Lass, Mentalla, the reboot Imra's sister Janice (Future villain)...and now Jeyra Entinn.
Well, a lot of characters were rebooted/revamped. I don't have a problem with that so long as it's well done.
It would be nice to see more villainesses (and heroines, for that matter) who actually get to punch and hit stuff. But there's still a lot of retrograde thinking that if females punch and hit, they aren't "feminine." Whatever that really means. Hence the tradition of mental powers as a way for females to be "girly" and still powerful.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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