posted
When I first started posting on message boards (I'm pretty sure I pre-date almost everyone on this board with very few exceptions, like Greybird and Dev-Em) way back five years ago, Legion fandom was totally split, in an uproar and totally upset with the Legion books. Although the reboot started out very good (in my IMO), things had begun to crap out pretty steadily to the point where almost no one was happy. Jeckie a snake, bad stories like "Dark Circle Rising" and other things made everyone not only resent the current creative team, but also other things about the reboot that they'd previously let slip (i.e. no Tenzil, etc.).
Then came DnA, and it looked like there'd be hope. There was such an overwhelming sense of enthusiasm, that for a few months (once Lost began), we were amazed to see so many good things done.
Currently, I've been dissatisfied with the last fifteen or so Legion issues, and think that DnA have fizzled out at the end of their run. But I strongly believe that they did a lot of great things at the beginning of their run to really please the fans and make things 'better' in the reboot. Not everything they did was great, but somethings undoubtedly were.
Here are some of the things DnA did to make the reboot more pleasing to the fans and 'save' the Legion:
-Brough Wildfire back, and with no mention of that stupid reboot origin. To say fans (myself included) were upset about this is an understatement. DnA came in, and did it immediately, bringing back the old Drake (at least in terms of personality).
-Gave a sense of Science Fiction and granduer again. They really did this, with Lost, Ra's al Ghul, Worlds, etc. There was a sense of grand science fiction that was needed.
-Cham gets a personality again. Immediately in the first issue of Damned, we see the 'old' Cham. Not only does he get some personality, Garth and others do too.
-Kid Quantum- DnA pretty much made this throw-away characters very likeable. I could have cared less about this no-personality/vague power Legionnaire until DnA came along, and now she's leader and we arguably see her too much.
-Monstress- I'm sorry, but Monstress had to go for me. I hated her, and the fact that she was on the team when Tenzil, Dirk and others weren't just irked me to no end. By 'killing her off', I think they made a wise move.
-Jo/Tinya/Garth/Imra- I think DnA did a good job at keeping these classic relationships fresh and interesting with twists, but also ensuring that they stayed major Legion relationships. Although things haven't been perfect, the fact that these relationships are fresh and exciting is a good thing IMO.
-Sensor- hey, at least they did something. Sensor-snake was probably the most hated thing about the reboot, and I remember fans being outraged and calling for Jeckie back. Although they didn't go all the way, at least they did something to kind of move on away from Sneckie.
-Legion Lost was fresh and exciting and Legion Worlds let us see everyone have some screen time at least for a bit. Although I now feel like barely any characters get characterization or screen time, it felt like everyone had something going on in the beginning at least.
-Dreamer joins the Legion, and is smart, witty and holds her own in battle. The best thing of the last year. Nura in the reboot was pretty crappy up until now.
-Chuck Taine is officially a Legoinnaire--or something like that. Good enough for me. I just wanted him included for a bit.
-Timberwolf- Bringing back Brin was another majorly good thing that DnA did. Like Wildfire, he was overdue.
I think these are all good things DnA did, and IMO really 'saved' the reboot Legion from an across the board fan outrage.
Of course, there are still some other things that I'd like to see done, but I'm satisfied. Now I just need good stories and characterization again. But for a time, DnA really did save the day and make the Legion pretty damn cool.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: -Brought Wildfire back...
Technically, he was already back wasn't he? But if you're giving them credit for not harping on him being two personalities, I guess they deserve it.
quote:-Gave a sense of Science Fiction and granduer again...
I'll agree, but with a mixed reaction. Terrorforms, less-than-explained threshholds, rifts, and time dams didn't really present any intriguing new possibilities for me.
quote:-Cham gets a personality again...
It's certainly a shift--not one I was too happy to see, however.
quote:-Kid Quantum...
They made me like her up to the point where they made me hate her.
quote:-Monstress...
Killing a character doesn't qualify as impressive for me. I was more impressed with how they fleshed-out Candi before they tossed her aside.
quote:-Jo/Tinya/Garth/Imra...
I certainly don't mind so much that they were doing things with these relationships, I just wish they'd do it already. The angst has been dragging on for years. That doesn't excite me, it irritates me.
quote:-Sensor- hey, at least they did something...
Good for them. And don't forget that they changed her personality along the lines of Cham--which was probably all that prevented her from being killed off.
quote:-Legion Lost was fresh and exciting and Legion Worlds let us see everyone have some screen time at least for a bit...
I'll agree there. I didn't like much of what happened, but did like the intimate looks at the team members.
quote:-Dreamer joins the Legion...
I pretty much expected that to happen regardless.
quote:-Chuck Taine is officially a Legoinnaire--or something like that...
If he's going to be there, I wish they'd just give him his dorky power and work with it. I often enjoyed the stories where Chuck got to use his power to save the day.
quote:-Timberwolf...
He is back...
In any case, you do have more experience with legion fan reaction than do I. If you want to say that things were so bad before and DnA made the right moves to save the title, go ahead. But, being able to read the whole run as I have, I never really ran out of hope that my affinity for the new legion would match my affinity for the old--until DnA got a hold of things.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Although the reboot started out very good (in my IMO), things had begun to crap out pretty steadily to the point where almost no one was happy. Jeckie a snake, bad stories like "Dark Circle Rising" and other things made everyone not only resent the current creative team, but also other things about the reboot that they'd previously let slip (i.e. no Tenzil, etc.).
Add me to the list of devoted fans who absolutely HATED what became of the LSH under Mike McAvennie's watch. "Dark Circle Rising!" was the absolute low point of the re-boot: excrutiatingly childish dialogue, simplistic characterization, immature dramatic tension to the stories. You might as well have reincarnated John Forte and had him pencil the issues. I quit reading Legion for a year after "Dark Circle Rising!"
quote: Currently, I've been dissatisfied with the last fifteen or so Legion issues, and think that DnA have fizzled out at the end of their run.
I'll echo that assessment. The last DnA story that I was excited to read was the Fatal Five/Timber Wolf slug-fest. That was a fun two-parter.
But after that, I feel DnA succumbed to a "How can I top this?" sentiment, culminating in a forgettable Darkseid story arc.
quote: Gave a sense of Science Fiction and granduer again.
I'll say that even when the re-boot Legion was at its worst (need I mention "Dark Circle Rising!" again?), it still provided a sense of Sci-fi grandeur. It just didn't do it successfully.
DnA brought "techno-babble" to the Legion. Can you think of any other Legion writer (or writing team) that showcased as much Star Trek: Next Generation-like techno-babble as DnA have?
quote: Cham gets a personality again. Immediately in the first issue of Damned, we see the 'old' Cham. Not only does he get some personality, Garth and others do too.
I agree. DnA matured the characters, not in the sense that they made the characters act older. DnA gave them complex motivations and concerns and desires, et al. The characters were certainly more nuanced under DnA than before "Legion of the Damned".
quote: -Kid Quantum- DnA pretty much made this throw-away characters very likeable.
They also made her a powerful character. I think they recognized just how awesome her abilities really are.
quote: -Monstress- I'm sorry, but Monstress had to go for me. By 'killing her off', I think they made a wise move.
I hated her too. She epitomized what was wrong with the LSH before "Legion of the Damned". Every character was so sweet and polite to each other, and nary a character conflict could be found.
BORING!
Montress's "sweetness" was so integral to her character that to alter her personality significantly would have been an obvious arbitrary move. So, as I see it, she had to be killed off, just so the title would NOT stray down that moronic path again.
quote:Jo/Tinya/Garth/Imra- I think DnA did a good job at keeping these classic relationships fresh and interesting with twists
I'm interested to know how DnA would have extended/resolved the Tinya/Jo/Brin triangle. I hope the next creative team addresses and progresses what's happening between these three characters.
quote: -Sensor- hey, at least they did something.
You have to have at least one bitter Legionnaire around, just to keep things interesting.
quote: Timberwolf- Bringing back Brin was another majorly good thing that DnA did.
Amen! And this version of Brin is just as cool as the original!
quote: But for a time, DnA really did save the day and make the Legion pretty damn cool.
We all have to acknowledge that DnA brought back some direction, relevance and maturity to a title that lost its way. Although I'm not crazy about the "Foundations" storyline, it's a fitting title for DnA's final Legion story arc because they truly laid down a solid foundation for future Legion writers to build upon.
-------------------- Omega Chase, available in stores in September: http://th3rdworld.com/comics.php
From: Long Island, NY | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Thanks for the reply APB! I can see that we don't see eye to eye on a few things, but I'm just happy to get good conversation.
A few points:
I know that how good the Legion is, is a subjective thing, so I don't really think my opinion is fact, but what I meant is that there truly was an outcry in the pre-DnA months. That's what I mean really, that Legion fandom in the DC message boards was in an uproar and a lot of the changes that they were demanding came to fruition. Sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy the DnA run at all-- I know I've hated the last two years, but I really liked what they were doing initially.
Wildfire- yeah, what I meant (if it wasn't clear) was that DnA brought back the real Wildfire and ignored that crappy post-boot origin. And they didn't harp on the origin, which most of us hated, which I thought was nice.
Any other thoughts from people?
And AWB, was there something about DnA's stories that you liked?
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Capt. Dallas, good comments and I agree totally with your last statement.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: And AWB, was there something about DnA's stories that you liked?
I liked their narrative and their intimate views of the members during Legion Lost--which, by the way, is what's been missing the last year or so. If they had kept it up--and done a few things differently--I might have been singing their praises in this thread.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
LEGION LOST, as a whole, remains the highpoint of their run for me. This limited series tested our heroes in ways they had not been tested before; it asked what is the definition of a hero, and when does a hero go too far?
This was pretty edgy stuff. Most of us are not used to the Legionnaires bluring the lines between good and evil (TMK notwithstanding). Yet here we have Saturn Girl manipulating Ultra Boy for months (and doing who knows what with him in bed), several Legionnaires losing faith, even Brainy admitting that he's been lying to rest in order to preserve their hope, and, of course, Element Lad, whose attempt to save his comrades goes so horribly wrong.
LEGION LOST was a controversial story, and one that was guaranteed to anger some fans. I guess that's why I like it. DnA took chances.
I can't help wondering, though, if they became victims of their own boldness. Perhaps they were truly unprepared for the backlash that followed, or perhaps DC reigned them in somehow. Everything they did after LOST paled in significance. Sure, the Ra's al Ghul arc was surprising and fun, but it ultimately lacked any real punch. Everything since then has been a slide down a slippery path to mediocrity.
[ April 28, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -Monstress- I'm sorry, but Monstress had to go for me. By 'killing her off', I think they made a wise move. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hated her too. She epitomized what was wrong with the LSH before "Legion of the Damned". Every character was so sweet and polite to each other, and nary a character conflict could be found.
BORING!
Montress's "sweetness" was so integral to her character that to alter her personality significantly would have been an obvious arbitrary move. So, as I see it, she had to be killed off, just so the title would NOT stray down that moronic path again.
But at least her sweetness was a little bit different; maybe not so much pre-DNA but it sure would be different now. DNA just made me like her too much to be happy about her being killed off.
They made me like lots of other characters who I found forgettable just before their run, too- Chameleon, Umbra, Spark, Kid Quantum, Star Boy, M'Onel, just to name a few- that I onced wished they would stay on the title forever. It's just too bad that they've started losing their touch; but I'm still glad they came along in the first place, since the Legion probably wouldn't be around now without them.
posted
Its a little weird reflecting on DNA for me because they're the first team on Legion that I've really followed closely - while I visited Legion here and there throughout the years, I didn't really get into it until I saw Legion Lost (the artwork drew me in and then the story made me stay). What I liked about DNA stories is the superhero soap opera: involving and exciting and addictive - like X-Men when its good. After I read my first issue of Lost I ran out and collected all the issues I had missed and all the issues of Legion of the Damned. Its been a long time since I was excited enough to drive out of my way to random comicbook stores to try and complete a storyline.
From: Alameda, CA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Wildfire- yeah, what I meant (if it wasn't clear) was that DnA brought back the real Wildfire and ignored that crappy post-boot origin. And they didn't harp on the origin, which most of us hated, which I thought was nice.
I wouldn't consider ignoring an unpopular issue to be "fixing" it. I, for one, didn't mind Wildfire's new origin. Umbra's initial horror at it's revelation gave the first sense of a softer side to her persona. Plus, it made me feel more sympathetic to a character (Drake) that I never really warmed up to before. If the majority disliked the new origin - DNA should have REALLY fixed it - a few panels devoted to how his divergent personalities are integrated now. Maybe a discussion with Triad on how to achieve this - as this is something she must experience everytime she merges. No points from me for just ignoring the problem all together.
I liked a lot of what DNA did - most have been mentioned already. I'd like to add the way Triad kicked ass in the Ra's arc was great. Too bad they've banished her to the background (with so many other characters) since then.
-------------------- The poster formerly known as Carggaphile.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey Eater Lad: What I liked about DNA stories is the superhero soap opera: involving and exciting and addictive - like X-Men when its good.
Monkey Lad,
If you haven't done so already, you need to find ALL the Paul Levitz written/Keith Giffen drawn issues of "LSH" from the early 1980s. GREAT superhero soap opera! Easily, the most entertaining Legion epoch of its 45 year history.
-------------------- Omega Chase, available in stores in September: http://th3rdworld.com/comics.php
From: Long Island, NY | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Look at me. I came up with something else I liked about DnA. They never even bothered trying to do some tedious epic that directly involved the Time Trapper. Sure, it was implied that he was involved with the blight--but that's all, and nothing since.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy: Look at me. I came up with something else I liked about DnA. They never even bothered trying to do some tedious epic that directly involved the Time Trapper. Sure, it was implied that he was involved with the blight--but that's all, and nothing since.
Plus CompuNux
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
Great topic idea, Cobalt Kid. (you know your should be "Cobalt-60 Kid", right ?)
-Making Monstress something more than a hulking cliché and killing her while staying true to the character. There were sixteen billion ways to kill her in two panels; instead, her death was kinda touching...and I really hated her before.
-The Progenitor. It was plain terrifying to see Element Lad turning to that. He wasn't the character introduced a couple of years ago, he was the guy I read as a kid. He could remember his friends even after a billion years, even after omnipotence, even after forgetting his own freakin' name. His words made you insignificant... you are an atom in a whole universe and you live for half a millisecond...
-Shikari. I've been reading the Legion for quite some years, and I liked most of the preboot. But to me, she's all that Dawnstar promised and never delivered. She's full of contradictions ("her feisty spirit"), but simple and true to herself. Besides Brainiac 5 and Saturn Girl, nobody else in the Legion has a different way to interact with every other legionnaire...except Shikari.
-Ra's Al Ghul. Most of the Legion villains are feared because of their power. Well, pretty much all of them. Ra's ? A human that steals the leadeship of one of the biggest galactic organizations, under its nose, and then takes down the whole Legion of Super-Heroes. And he WINS, in the end of it all. AND it was believable...except beating M'onel that way, that is.
-COMPUTO. At last, more interesting than the simple-minded preboot version. Creates a gigantic robotic empire and outmarts the forces of the human that stole the leadership of one of the biggest galactic organizations and then took down the whole Legion of Super-Heroes.
-Legion World. Brande's _second_ greatest idea.
-Ferro gets a reason to keep the mask in a world that has no problems with seeing the Gil'dan.
-Gravity-enhanced tornadoes. In Flash and JLA, we've seen quite some ways to use super-speed, but this was original.
-The Dreamer. No need to say more about it.
-Think fast.
-Sensor. I'm one of the five sentients who loved the snake idea. This is even better.
I really hoped to see DnA's version of the Time Trapper. They could make him even more interesting (if that's possible) and write him/it in a new way... I really really really want to see him/it in a story that doens't involve retcons AND deus-ex-machina. Not that I think DnA could make that... i like their work but that would be worshipping... but one can still hope.
From: End of time | Registered: Apr 2004
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